#pypy IRC log for Sunday, 2011-10-30

« Saturday, 2011-10-29 Index Monday, 2011-10-31 »
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bbot23Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/92300:08
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bbot23Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/12001:44
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/1813 [12pcl, 1.6]01:45
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/679 [12pcl, 1.6]01:45
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/1075 [12pcl, 1.6]01:45
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/547 [12pcl, 1.6]01:45
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/181401:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/54801:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-64/builds/59501:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/107601:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-Ojit-no-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/78101:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-32/builds/141301:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/68001:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-win-x86-32/builds/24601:49
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/181402:56
timonatori'm still hoping the numbers on speed.pypy.org are wrong02:56
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-win-x86-32/builds/24602:58
poincare101Failure: trying to get the color03:35
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-32/builds/141303:56
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/107604:15
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/54804:29
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-Ojit-no-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/78104:42
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Alex_Gaynorfijal: you should benchmark http://www.scipy.org/PerformancePython once you can on your branch :)07:34
Alex_Gaynorfijal: also if you can find a suggestion for how matti can contribute that'd be good07:35
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fijalAlex_Gaynor: a bit hard with no tests :/08:46
Alex_Gaynorfijal: what's hard?08:47
fijalfor matti to contibute08:47
Alex_Gaynorso show him how we write tests08:47
fijalyes08:47
fijalbut he should come to IRC08:47
Alex_Gaynorhe's been on IRC a few times08:47
fijaland probably pick a less crucial task08:47
fijalhe can add support for say repr?08:48
fijal(it's not done on my branch)08:48
fijalfeel like writing him and explaining what TDD is?08:48
Alex_Gaynornot now, I'm going to bed in about 30 seconds08:48
Alex_Gaynorright, bed time for me, see you tommorrow08:49
fijalsee you 2morrow08:50
fijalI can try maybe08:50
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kenaan12arigo extradoc 11340aece5643f 15/sprintinfo/gothenburg-2011-2/people.txt: Updates13:29
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_alexis_hi all, i would like to know if there are some "medium" introduction for building interpreters with pypy (somewhere between the brainfuck example, and the full featured implementation of io/js)? I looked over the internet but I can't find something like that.14:11
ronny_alexis_: i not aware of one, what do you seek to do?14:15
_alexis_ok thanks ronny, i'd like to play with pypy (by curiosity) more in depth than the brainfuck example.14:16
ronny_alexis_: that goal sounds equally fuzzy to me14:18
ronnydo you have somemthing concrete in mind you'd like to try?14:18
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_alexis_yes implementing a toy language with common concepts (object, loops and so on) so I imagine there's more to know than the bf example14:19
ronny_alexis_: i see, then i think you can pretty much use the same pattern pypy use for the pypy interrpreter14:26
ronny*patterns14:27
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_alexis__ronny_ : ok thanks I'll look at it14:29
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kenaan12arigo default 11bfea8fbdeed4 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/optimizeopt/: Progress a bit on optimizing int_mod.14:44
kenaan12arigo default 114a6eae0d9aa1 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/optimizeopt/test/test_optimizeopt.py: Add skipped tests about division.14:44
kenaan12arigo default 118e8835c75415 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/optimizeopt/: merge heads14:44
kenaan12arigo stm 11795b3e474cce 15/pypy/translator/stm/llstminterp.py: Move and add comments.14:47
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kenaan12arigo stm 11b66d9e6e0eed 15/pypy/translator/c/: Kill the explicit C code manipulating GC strings and lists at start-up, and replace it with RPython code. (transplanted...15:54
kenaan12arigo stm 11e6522686416a 15/pypy/translator/: Progress.15:54
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kenaan12arigo stm 1143fe948fc6ca 15/pypy/translator/: Protect debug printing with the RPY_STM_ASSERT define. Lets us run tests.16:05
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kenaan12arigo default 11fd20e5312348 15/pypy/jit/: A failing test.17:20
kenaan12arigo default 117c12a810b394 15/pypy/rpython/lltypesystem/rpbc.py: Fix for the JIT: don't use Arrays that are not GcArrays but that have a length.17:20
Action: arigato broke int_mod17:22
kenaan12arigo default 11c74b79096726 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/optimizeopt/: Revert bfea8fbdeed4: it seems not to work correctly.  Will investigate.17:25
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Rhyolitelac: ping17:55
fijalRhyolite: hi17:55
Rhyolitehi, fijal17:55
Rhyolitehow goes it?17:55
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fijalgood, a relaxing weekend17:56
Rhyolitea lot of excitement here with the early snow storm17:57
RhyoliteI did not think that there were any trees and branches that had not already fallen during the hurricane17:57
Nick change: ojii|afk -> ojii17:58
fprimexfijal: hello17:59
fijalfprimex: hi17:59
fprimexI got a nightly compiled for our cluster, but unfortunately I don't believe it will be very useful for right now17:59
fijalbecause?18:00
fprimexI'm interested in helping with the numpy effort. We really need at least 2D array before we can start testing existing code18:00
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fijalfprimex: I'm working on it18:01
fijalthere is a branch, but it's unfinished18:01
fijalcool!18:01
fijalyou can both help with code and make someone donate money :)18:02
fprimexfijal: great to hear, and I'm looking forward to testing it18:02
_alexis_hi again, what is supposed to return the target function? all example return the entry_point and None (but I assume sometimes it shouldn't be None, right?)18:02
fijal_alexis_: this is an annotation None is a special one meaning list-of-strings18:02
fijal(which is the usual calling schema)18:03
fijalI guess in most cases it would return None18:03
fprimexfijal: I'm new to the pypy codebase, but I have plenty of C and python experience, and a math/CS background. is there a task list somewhere?18:03
fijalfor numpy? not really18:03
_alexis_fijal : ok thanks18:03
fijalthat's by far good enough experience :)18:04
fijalfprimex: you can implement some missing ufuncs as a good start18:04
fijalit should get you relatively familiar with the codebase while not being terribly hard18:06
fijalAlex_Gaynor: ping18:06
Alex_Gaynorfijal: pong18:06
fijalAlex_Gaynor: do you have any other idea how fprimex could help?18:06
Alex_Gaynorufuncs, helping you with the multidim, an ambitious task might be adding `frompyfunc`18:07
fprimexfijal: OK, I'll get going with it on bitbucket and my colo; see what I can do18:08
fijalfprimex: cool18:08
fijalAlex_Gaynor: are you sure virtual dicts didn't break -A tests?18:08
Alex_Gaynorfijal: on nojit?18:08
fijalyop18:09
Alex_GaynorAm I sure? no.  does it make any sense? no18:09
fijalwell, also x86 tests are segfaulting :/18:09
Alex_Gaynorthat also should have nothing to dowith nojit18:09
Alex_GaynorI claim hybrid is the only explanation18:09
fijalyes18:09
fijalmaybe hybrid and lightweight finalizers indeed18:09
Action: fijal will take a look tomorrow morning18:10
kenaan12alex_gaynor extradoc 1197ca19999a70 15/planning/micronumpy.txt: updates to numpy planning18:12
kenaan12alex_gaynor extradoc 11e1a088b4f3e2 15/sprintinfo/gothenburg-2011-2/people.txt: merged upstream18:12
Alex_Gaynorfijal: what's the status of your branch?18:24
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justinpeelfijal: I saw you talking about the rgc-mem-pressure branch. I believe that it is ready to merge (as long as default still merges in). I've been quite busy this week.18:50
fijaljustinpeel: ok18:51
fijaljustinpeel: then I'll look into merging it18:51
fijalAlex_Gaynor: the multidim one?18:51
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Alex_Gaynorfijal: yes18:52
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fijalthe same as we talked last :)18:52
fijaltook the weekend off18:52
Alex_Gaynorfijal: so, broadcasting is teh main remaining thing?18:52
fijalwell, and more tests18:52
fijaland zji tests18:52
fijalzjit18:53
fijalso quite a bit18:53
Alex_Gaynorfijal: cool, did you see the benchmark I linked?18:53
Alex_Gaynorfijal: going to get lunch, be back in 20 or so18:53
fijalyes, I know the benchmark :)18:53
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Alex_Gaynorfijal: it'd be nice if we could win at it :)19:06
fijalyop19:06
fijalmaybe not with C++19:07
fijaland not without SSE :(19:07
fijalI fear19:07
fijalbut let's see19:07
Alex_Gaynorlast time I wrote a version of it that just used an array and I did indexing manually, it was within 20% of the C++19:07
fijalah ok19:07
fijallet's try then?19:07
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fijalgetitem can be made fast19:07
fijalI'll give it a go tomorrow morn19:08
Alex_Gaynoris it not fast ATM?19:09
UnhelpfulDoes frozenset have any optimizations vs set, on pypy? There are a few I can think of (build a Bloom filter for the set, maybe?)19:10
Alex_Gaynorno, it doesn't19:11
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MostAwesomeDudefrozenset's pretty rare, so I wouldn't expect a bunch of work on it.19:13
UnhelpfulI assume JIT might do some things on objects it knows are immutable, but it would seem to me it might make sense to use Bloom filters for frozenset, either built on instantiation or after a few "in" tests against it.19:13
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UnhelpfulFor that matter, you could also make a Bloom filter for regular sets, but you would have to clear or rebuild it whenever an object is removed.19:14
MostAwesomeDudeWell, you'd need two filters, right? One for the identities, and one for the equality hashes.19:14
UnhelpfulBloom is only probabilistic for positive matches, anyway - you then need to really look in the setfor the item. But it would give fast negative results.19:16
UnhelpfulSo if you want to be really clever about it, you could track negative results for membership tests, then build a Bloom filter when there are enough.19:18
fprimexis there anything like a 'make clean' I should use between translates?19:19
Alex_Gaynornope, you shouldn't need to translate very often though19:19
MostAwesomeDudeUnhelpful: Wouldn't you need a *really* big set for this to be worthwhile, though, considering that the test is already constant-time?19:20
UnhelpfulPerhaps. I suppose if members are indexed by hash we already *sort of* have a partial Bloom filter, don't we?19:22
fprimexthanks. also, the call to package.py on the website is done with python. is this required? can pypy be used for package also?19:23
Alex_Gaynorprobably, if not that sounds like we have a bug19:24
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linqhttp://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/ltb8h/suggest_a_python_3d_physics_library/ <- These guys seem no to have heard of PyPy :)19:29
linqs/no/not19:30
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fprimexhmm, I think translate fails if /tmp is mounted noexec19:32
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ronnylinq: pypy is not a library for 3d collisions, its just fast python20:22
ronnys/collisions/physics20:22
ronnylinq: implementing 3d collision detection is quite a feat20:23
ronnyeven more so if the rst of physics is in there as well20:23
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linqTrue enough ronny, I recognize that building a 3d collision api on python is non-trivial. My only point is that things that were once infeasible in python are now at least imaginable thanks to PyPy20:45
linqI was referring (in that link) to a comment someone had made about python not being able to handle realtime 3d simulation. Specifically: "Pure python would probably be too slow for non-trivial, realtime simulations."20:46
ronnylinq: im pretty sure stuff like list-strategies  needs some more work till its doable nicely20:55
DasIchlinq: even with PyPy you will probably hit limits very fast21:04
linqWell, it will certainly be fascinating to see the outcome, either way. Didn't manage to get arigo's 3d hack working (arigo / hack / 3d), but it got me thinking about the possibility of a functional 3d platform in PyPy.21:04
linqI'm curious about what those limits are, and what defines them.21:05
DasIchlinq: take a look at what people are currently doing in with JS and WebGL21:05
linqAre they starting to reach the limitations of jit-aided optimizations? I mean, I suppose there will necessarily always be overhead in a jit, but just how much overhead is what I wonder.21:08
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ronnylinq: i think much of 3d performance comes from stuff like structural/memory-layout optimizations and moving stuff to the gpu21:23
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kenaan12mattip numpy-multidim 11723ed1ac5a3a 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: repr and str rework21:31
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matti_Alex, fijal: I moved to working in numpy-multidim, what is policy for closing the NDimArray branch?21:33
Nick change: matti_ -> mattip21:33
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amauryronny: congratulations for the change in heapq.py21:42
Alex_Gaynormattip: Please please right more tests than this.  ATM I see your code still has prints and pdb statements left in it.  We don't really have a policy on closing a branch, if no one is working on it it gets closed.21:45
mattipwhoops, sorry. I will clean it up and recommit.21:45
ronnyamaury: unfortunately raymond doesnt think its a bug21:47
Nick change: Gulaway -> Gulopine21:47
amauryHe fixed it, though21:47
ronnyreally?21:47
amauryhttp://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-checkins/2011-October/108919.html21:48
ronnythen why did he mark it as invalid?21:48
amauryhe fixed it afterwards :-)21:48
ronnyhe didnt commit tests21:48
amauryI thought you somehow managed to convince him21:48
ronnymeh21:53
ronnyas long as cpython gets bug/behaviour fixes without tests by them, python is a whimp compared to perl21:54
amauryit mostly depends on the authors21:55
amaurysome really tricky race conditions have proper tests21:56
amaury(threads, forks, multiprocessing &co)21:56
ronnyunless everybody is doing it, the community is broken in part21:57
amaurybut python developers are of very different kinds21:58
ronnytesting and reviewing is part of a propper engineering culture21:59
amaurynot everybody agrees21:59
ronnyamaury: there is a reason why the other engineering cultures have much lower project failure/overcost rates22:02
ronnynamely propperly doing the test/review/adapt cycle22:02
Alex_Gaynoramaury, ronny: I'll note that no where is it documented that these functions only have defined outputs for non-negative values22:02
amauryor "undefined behavior"22:03
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kenaan12mattip numpy-multidim 110d9e53f59c5d 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: testing22:07
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mattipAlex - any better? I added some tests and made sure I passed all the exisiting ones...22:17
Alex_Gaynoryes22:17
Alex_Gaynorsorry, working on somethign else ATM< don't have tmie for a full review22:18
Alex_Gaynorhopefully fijal will have a few minutes to look22:18
mattipOK, gnight.22:18
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bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-macosx-x86-32/builds/69722:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/12122:48
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/92422:48
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/12122:58
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/92422:59
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RhyoliteAlex_Gaynor: Jewish and Christian views on justice / mercy?23:31
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Alex_GaynorRhyolite: yup :)23:34
Rhyoliteciting Deut 16:20?23:35
Alex_Gaynorno, I didn't have that one /me adds it to the quotes list23:35
Alex_Gaynorthanks23:35
RhyoliteHuman mercy or divine mercy?23:37
Alex_Gaynorso far that's what I'm going with as a key distinction :)23:38
Rhyolitecool23:39
Rhyolitethe concept varies with time period23:40
Rhyoliteand whether the group was in the majority or minority23:40
Alex_Gaynoryeah, only so much you can fit into 10 pages :)23:41
Rhyolitehttp://biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0105.htm23:41
Rhyolitecompares King Manasseh and Saul of Tarsus23:41
exarkunwhat23:42
Rhyolitewelcome to Bible study23:42
Rhyolitethe sins of the two men and the mercy bestowed upon them23:43
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Rhyolite"Do not pray as though by rote, but plead for mercy and grace before God." - Pirke Avot 2:1823:44
Alex_Gaynoryou've got a decent well of quotes :)23:45
Rhyolite:-)23:45
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RhyoliteI'm not just a Python and GCC programmer :-)23:45
RhyoliteAlex_Gaynor: and one can expand "justice" into social justice23:47
Alex_Gaynorthat's a pretty big expansion :)23:47
RhyoliteFor judgment, you should mention King Solomon and the story of the two women claiming to be the mother of a child (1 Kings 3:16-28)23:50
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exarkunYou should really find another channel.23:52
--- Mon Oct 31 201100:00
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