#pypy IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-11-15

amaury_for example, someone had the good idea that PyWeakref_GetObject returns a borrowed reference00:00
amaury_in pypy, this reference was *always* stale00:00
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amaury_(refcount=0)00:00
Alex_Gaynorsigh00:01
amaury_I added code so that the reference is kept alive for the duration of the C call00:01
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amaury_a bit like LocalReferences in JNI00:02
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-macosx-x86-32/builds/71201:28
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/13901:35
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bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/184301:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-macosx-x86-64/builds/26601:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/110701:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/56901:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-64/builds/61201:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-Ojit-no-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/79701:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-32/builds/143901:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/70301:44
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-win-x86-32/builds/26401:44
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bbot23Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/94103:08
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bbot23Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/184304:08
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-Ojit-no-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/79705:06
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-32/builds/143905:06
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-64/builds/61205:07
kenaan12alex_gaynor jit-dynamic-getarrayitem 1125fd786beb8d 15/pypy/: merged default in05:10
kenaan12alex_gaynor jit-dynamic-getarrayitem 11fc596321cc9b 15/pypy/jit/backend/model.py: make these not static05:10
kenaan12alex_gaynor jit-dynamic-getarrayitem 114f3e2c9dda26 15/pypy/jit/backend/llgraph/: translation-ish fix, except it still breaks05:10
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/110705:22
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kenaan12alex_gaynor default 117a416e643dc0 15/pypy/rpython/test/test_rtuple.py: a failing test07:05
kenaan12alex_gaynor default 11cfb76a08edcb 15/pypy/module/cpyext/: merged upstream07:05
kenaan12alex_gaynor default 11bf8bf8a5810e 15/pypy/rpython/test/test_rtuple.py: simplify failing test07:23
bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/70307:32
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-macosx-x86-64/builds/26607:43
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kenaan12bivab ppc-jit-backend 11d1fa57a9cf80 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/: add a helper method to the register manager to allocate a scratch register09:19
kenaan12bivab ppc-jit-backend 117a670ce597e7 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/: allocate and use a scratch register for get/set arrayitem in case the scale > 009:19
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Guest13217hi, I was trying to understand if it is possible to use my own swig-wrapped python extension with pypy, but from the docs I think it is not. Is this correct?09:25
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MostAwesomeDudeGuest13217: It might work, with a recompile.09:36
Guest13217Gest13217, could you please point me to some documentation on how to do that?09:38
Guest13217I actually compiled pypy from source09:38
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MostAwesomeDudeCreate a virtualenv with that pypy-c, then try to install your extension into that virtualenv the normal way.09:39
MostAwesomeDudeIt'll cause your C to be compiled against PyPy's headers.09:39
Guest13217MostAwesomeDude, thanks, I'll check that09:39
MostAwesomeDudeGotta go; good luck.09:39
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kenaan12hager ppc-jit-backend 112cc68464f249 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/ppc_assembler.py: Added regalloc_push and regalloc_pop => test_jump passes11:43
kenaan12hager ppc-jit-backend 112a816abcb981 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/: merge11:43
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kenaan12hager ppc-jit-backend 11dd67675a28a9 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/: Started implementation of NEW, first test passes13:45
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fijalAlex_Gaynor: ping14:37
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jellexarkun: ok, i'll read this ;)14:47
exarkunjell: Oh, hi. :)14:48
jellexarkun: btw. if it's also in #3114, why i don't see any of this changes in trunk?14:49
exarkunjell: #3114 is still open14:49
jellok14:49
jellprobably my changes are too simple...14:49
jelland probably buggy as i see that now :/14:50
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Rhy0litebivab: ping14:55
bivabRhy0lite: hi14:55
Rhy0litebivab: hi14:55
Rhy0litemy other meeting was postponed to next week if you and Sven want to work now14:55
bivabsven is busy right now, maybe in about 30 minutes?14:57
Rhy0liteokay14:57
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cfbolzarigato: hi!15:24
cfbolzarigato: got back safely?15:24
arigatohi15:28
arigatofrom next door15:28
Alex_Gaynorfijal: pong15:28
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bivabRhy0lite: sven_hager is back, should we meet in #pypy-ppc?15:47
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fijalAlex_Gaynor: what about the boston sprint?16:11
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Alex_Gaynorfijal: what about it?16:11
fijalshould we organize it?16:11
Alex_GaynorYes, but we should speak with someone in boston I guess :)16:11
fijala good way would be to mail pypy-dev16:12
exarkunThe Boston Python Meetup organization might be someone to coordinate that with.16:12
antocuni_a boston sprint? When?16:12
exarkunThey may be able to help with a venue16:12
Alex_Gaynorexarkun: and organizing I suspect, my all accounts Jessica McKellar (sp?) is good at that :)16:12
exarkun(They have some, though they typically use them for a few hours on evenings, so I don't know if they're suitable for multi-day sprint use)16:12
exarkunIndeed16:13
Alex_Gaynorfijal: in unrelated news, feel like taking a look at the failing test I pushed to rtuple?16:14
Action: fijal ponders if he's able to organize his mind16:15
fijalAlex_Gaynor: I'm after ~24h flying trip16:15
Alex_Gaynorfijal: no one else is around :)16:15
fijalnot a very good excuse16:16
gsneddersSo serializing the HTML5 spec using html5lib with etree is about half the speed of CPython&16:16
fijalbut ok, maybe16:16
fijalgsnedders: good, submit a bug report16:16
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cfbolzgsnedders: it's probably because pypy's etree is pure python, and cpython's is in C?16:19
gsnedderscfbolz: It's the serialization that's slower, and that's not in etree16:19
Alex_Gaynorcfbolz: feel like looking at a failing test I pushed to rtuple?16:20
cfbolzno, need to prepare my lecture for tomorrow16:20
Alex_Gaynorfun lecture?16:21
cfbolzit's really hard to come up with convincing short examples for multiple inheritance16:21
cfbolzAlex_Gaynor: if you know one, I can take a look :-)16:21
Alex_Gaynorcfbolz: if you allow for the case of mixins, there are some ok cases16:21
cfbolzyes, I did mixins. some nice examples for that count too16:22
cfbolzbut I would also really like a useful diamond example16:22
Alex_Gaynorhmm, agood diamond example.16:22
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fijalare there good diamond examples?16:23
cfbolzprobably not16:23
fijalI am aware of a few bad ones16:23
cfbolzpairtype!!!16:23
Alex_Gaynor:D16:23
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Alex_Gaynorcfbolz: FYI pairtype scares all the normal python programmers I showed it to16:23
cfbolzyes, I did that one year and lost half the students16:23
cfbolzfijal: which bad ones?16:24
fijalcfbolz: like exception hierarchy in Python's stdlib16:24
cfbolzah16:24
fijalI think there is one that inherits from LookupError and something else16:24
Alex_GaynorI don't think there's any multiple inheritance in exceptions, but maybe I'm wrong16:25
Alex_GaynorSomehow the io module has no multiple inheritance.16:25
cfbolzanyway, I am taking compelling mixins too, any ideas?16:26
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Alex_Gaynorcfbolz: django's class based views are built on mixins, to almost a scary degree16:26
cfbolzAlex_Gaynor: that's nothing I can program in a lecture16:26
Alex_Gaynorhmm, true16:26
fijalAlex_Gaynor: yes there is 16:27
fijal>>> encodings.CodecRegistryError.__mro__16:27
fijal(<class 'encodings.CodecRegistryError'>, <type 'exceptions.LookupError'>, <type 'exceptions.SystemError'>, <type 'exceptions.StandardError'>, <type 'exceptions.Exception'>, <type 'exceptions.BaseException'>, <type 'object'>)16:27
fijal>>> 16:27
cfbolzAlex_Gaynor: how is that an argument?16:27
cfbolzfijal: meant you16:27
Alex_Gaynorfijal: why on earth does CodecRegistryError subclass SystemError16:27
fijalcfbolz: SystemError and LookupError have common superclass16:28
fijalbut are not each others superclass16:28
cfbolzfijal: just saying you should have pasted this:16:28
cfbolz>>> encodings.CodecRegistryError.__bases__16:28
cfbolz(<type 'exceptions.LookupError'>, <type 'exceptions.SystemError'>)16:28
fijalright16:28
fijalindeed, forgot about __bases__16:29
fijalbut I'm dead16:29
fijal"Please understand that static analysis and optimization are necessary to make complex web apps tractable to develop and efficient to load and run."16:30
fijalso they claim static analysis of javascript lets them optimize it16:30
Alex_Gaynorfijal: none of that is true16:30
fijalgoogle+ folks16:30
fijalhttps://plus.google.com/u/0/115060278409766341143/posts/ViaVbBMpSVG16:30
fijalhow can it be a lie? google said that16:30
lucianfijal: Closure does do dead code elimination and inlining16:31
fijallucian: how does dead code elimination speed up anything?16:31
Alex_Gaynoryou know what else does dead code elimination?  not writing dead code, you know what does inlining?  my compiler16:31
fijaland how does inlining change anything when you have a JIT?16:31
lucianfijal: network transfer, of course16:31
fijalyeah, not writing dead code sounds better though16:31
lucianfijal: and inlining is useful for things like IE16:31
fijalhm, ok, that might be valid argument16:32
lucianfijal: what about the library you're using? most of jQuery is dead code at any one time16:32
fijalbut it's not quantified there16:32
fijal"which helps in corner cases"16:32
fijallucian: how can you remove it?16:32
Alex_Gaynorhow can you even *find* dead code in JS16:32
lucianClosure basically does the equivalent of static linking16:32
lucianAlex_Gaynor: it's a compiler16:32
lucianAlex_Gaynor: it can break things if you don't give it the right annotations16:33
Alex_Gaynoroh good, it can break things16:33
durin42Alex_Gaynor: yeah, closure trusts the types you specify in special comment blocks16:33
lucianAlex_Gaynor: only if you're not careful16:33
durin42Alex_Gaynor: and if you screw it up, things can break16:33
durin42Alex_Gaynor: so the theory is you write good tests16:33
Alex_Gaynorso, only if you're perfect, it's the inverse type system16:33
lucianalso, it does safe DCE by default16:33
durin42That said, if you've got enough tests to trust your javascript codebase, you probably have enough tests that testing the closure-compiled js will be a good check of your type annotations.16:34
lucianso if you use just part of a library, just that part will be included, possibly inlined16:34
durin42Right.16:34
durin42I've heard that it's much more fun to work with than GWT.16:34
durin42I have no direct experience with either too.16:35
durin42s/too/tool/16:35
lucianyes, GWT is just painful if you don't love Java16:35
lucianbut Closure (library + compiler) also requires some Java love16:35
durin42Huh?16:35
luciantype annotations, the library is very java-ish16:36
durin42It requires java to run the jscompiler (IIRC), but that's all.16:36
durin42Ah.16:36
durin42That's not terribly surprising I guess.16:36
lucianDart makes a lot of sense for google16:36
luciantypes, java-ish16:36
lucianthat's why it's so big, it inlines its stdlib and expects you to run Closure on it16:37
luciangoogle folks aren't entirely sane, methinks16:37
durin42Dart honestly makes no sense to me. I'd rather just write javascript.16:38
fijalok fine16:40
fijalbut isn't that the real source of a problem?16:40
fijalnow instead of one jquery I have bajillion small pieces of jquery16:40
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fijaland each website has an incompatible one16:40
fijaland I can't cache it16:41
fijalno?16:41
lucianfijal: sure16:41
lucianbut google don't care16:41
durin42sure, but the reality is that everyone ships their own jquery anyway, right?16:41
luciandurin42: lots of people use the CDN ones16:41
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Alex_Gaynorwho does that?  I just ship and cache, or CDN it.16:41
durin42(I actually don't know if we do anything clever around reusing our CDN'd jqueries if it gets run through the closure meatgrinder.)16:42
lucianfijal: especially since few websites use Google Closure (the library)16:42
Alex_Gaynorpeople are almost starting to trust the CDNs, now that they haven't been down once in a long time16:42
fijalbut once you load it you should be good16:42
luciandurin42: unless you use the "advanced" mode in closure, you're not16:42
fijallucian: they apparently care because they wrote a blog post about infrastructure optimizations16:42
lucianfijal: they care about google plus being fast16:42
fijaland I can't quite wrap up my mind if they're doing something cool or just working around limitations16:42
lucianthe second, mostly16:43
Alex_Gaynorfijal: limitations, JS sucks deeply16:43
fijalAlex_Gaynor: how's closure-compiled-to-js?16:43
Alex_Gaynorclosure is just a JS lib, not a new language16:43
lucianfijal: Closure compiler or Closure library?16:43
lucianthey're so fucking confusingly named16:43
fijalI think one of those is clojure16:43
Alex_Gaynorfijal: no, that's a lisp for the JVM16:44
fijalI suppose they love closure16:44
lucianthe Closure compiler does minification of JavaScript, potentially using annotations16:44
fijaland 16:44
fijali thought clojure16:44
Alex_Gaynorfijal: no, closures are an abstraction over function16:44
lucianbut it's funny, because ClojureScript uses the Google Closure Compiler16:44
lucianfijal: no, they don't use Clojure at all16:44
Alex_Gaynorok I don't even know what the fuck that is16:44
lucianit'd be awesome if they did16:44
lucianAlex_Gaynor: ClojureScript? sounds straightforward to me. Clojure -> JavaScript compiler16:45
fijallucian: ok, so this website: http://code.google.com/closure/16:45
fijalclearly states that the resulting JS is faster16:45
fijalhow?16:45
lucianfijal: it does do some optimisations sometimes16:45
fijalyes ok16:45
lucianlike if( DEBUG )16:45
fijalyou said inlining and dead code removal16:45
fijalnone of them speeds up the code16:45
fijalor inlining does, but the JIT does it anyway16:45
lucianit eliminates branches/loops based on the constantness of conditions16:46
fijalwouldn't jit do that as well?16:46
gsneddersAlex_Gaynor: You can find dead-code based upon type-profiling in JS.16:46
fijaleven better?16:46
lucianfijal: sure, but not every browser has a JIT16:46
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gsnedderslucian: What browsers don't?16:46
Alex_Gaynorgsnedders: only if you know those types are stable in the actual run16:46
luciangsnedders: IE16:47
lucianfijal: and most importantly, it's still smaller16:47
Alex_Gaynormaybe IE4, it's had one for several releases16:47
gsnedderslucian: IE9 does.16:47
luciannetwork trumps all16:47
luciangsnedders: that's still too new16:47
gsneddersAlex_Gaynor: Only IE9 does.16:47
fijalI would stress that unqualified "high performance" means it's faster not on some obscure browsers16:47
Alex_Gaynorgsnedders: is IE10 not out?  I've lost track.16:47
luciangsnedders: they support IE7 and IE8 i believe16:47
fijalbut pretty much everywhere16:47
gsneddersAlex_Gaynor: No, it isn't.16:47
durin42IE6 is barely dead, much less 7 or 8.16:47
fijalanyway, why would I believe this website is not full of lies?16:47
lucianfijal: well, they're sort of lying about that16:47
durin42And smartphones don't tend to have jit in their js interpreter16:47
gsneddersdurin42: Fewer and fewer, though16:48
gsneddersdurin42: The vast majority do now.16:48
durin42plus, having less js to transmit and parse -> win16:48
lucianfijal: on the web smaller size = faster16:48
durin42gsnedders: IIRC android doesn't until ICS16:48
luciandurin42: they sure do now16:48
fijallucian: but not high-performance16:48
gsneddersdurin42: Android always has.16:48
luciandurin42: android 2.3 has v8, before that it had javascriptcore's jit16:48
gsneddersdurin42: Android has always used V8 which doesn't have an itnerpreter.16:48
fijallucian: tell me you can read this website in a way that says "we make code smaller"16:48
durin42Oh, then I'm thinking of iOS, which didn't until 4 or thereabouts16:48
lucianfijal: as i said "It runs quickly" means "It loads over the network, parses and then executes quickly"16:49
luciangsnedders: actually no, just since 2.316:49
fijalthis is not what the website says16:49
luciangsnedders: or at least that's what my debugger says16:49
gsnedderslucian: `http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-2.2-highlights.html says 2.216:49
fijalThe Closure Compiler compiles JavaScript into compact, high-performance code.16:49
luciangsnedders: ah, ok16:49
Alex_Gaynorgsnedders: that's the dalvik JIT, isn't it?16:49
Alex_Gaynornot the JS one16:50
gsneddersAlex_Gaynor: Nope.16:50
lucianfijal: yeah. high-performance, which means it loads fast16:50
fijalno it does not16:50
gsneddersAlex_Gaynor: V8 and Dalvik landed in the same release.16:50
lucianAlex_Gaynor: it's shipped the webkit jit for a while16:50
Alex_Gaynorgsnedders: the only place I see JIT on that page specifically refers to dalvik16:50
fijaleither it is deliberately lying or I have a very skewed vision16:50
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Alex_Gaynorgsnedders: ah I see it says v8 there, but didn't you say it was just javascriptcore before that?16:50
lucianfijal: in the context of web development, it's only slightly lying16:51
gsneddersAlex_Gaynor: It was JSC, dunno if they used the JIT or not.16:51
lucianit also unrolls loops and stuff like that16:51
luciananyway, it's only rarely useful16:51
gsneddersMost of what Closure does is becoming less and less important with optimizing compilers.16:51
lucianlike for languages with no browser-side library (ClojureScript)16:51
gsneddersWhen we were still dealing with interpreters normally, it was fairly important.16:51
Action: gsnedders doesn't acually know how far back JSC's ARM backend goes16:52
luciangsnedders: it's pretty good. iOS uses it16:52
fijalAlex_Gaynor: google names this shit16:52
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fijaldart go16:52
lucianand it's used it for a few versions, i think16:52
Alex_Gaynorjterrace: you're fast :)16:52
jterracehehe16:52
lucianfijal: except one's crap and the other's ok :)16:53
gsnedderslucian: Oh, yes, it's pretty good. Just don't know how long it's been around.16:53
fijallucian: /16:53
fijal?16:53
luciangsnedders: i see16:53
Action: lucian goes home. bye!16:53
jterraceAlex_Gaynor: so when pycollada passes all tests in pypy, i will do a dance16:53
gsneddersJune 2009 would appear to be the answer16:53
fijaljterrace: what's missing from numpy?16:54
Alex_Gaynorjterrace: so the float32 ones will be fixed on a branch I have, the readonly-ness of shape is fair game to file a bug (talk to fijal about tha tone I guess), and I guess file a bug for string as well16:54
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jterraceok16:54
Alex_Gaynorfijal: numpy.float32, writing to the shape attr, and numpy.string_16:54
jterracedoes .reshape work instead of setting .shape directly?16:54
fijaljterrace: what happens if you change shape?16:54
fijalit reshapes the array?16:54
Alex_Gaynorjterrace: no, we don't have multidim on trunk anyways16:54
fijalI don't think there is reshape16:54
jterracefijal: http://pastebin.com/zm2CJZDq16:54
jterraceoh ok16:54
Alex_Gaynorfijal: reshape with single dim is kind of boring :)16:55
fijaljterrace: we need multidim arrays first16:55
jterraceyeah16:55
fijalthis is being-developed16:55
jterraceawesome16:55
fijalwith a pace of a moderate walk if you ask me ;-)16:55
Alex_Gaynorjterrace: we have 2 big open branches ATM, one fixes a ton of dtype stuff and adds numpy.{float32, etc.} the other adds multidim16:56
gsneddersAlex_Gaynor: FWIW, you can DCE quite easily provided you have no objects (i.e., only boolean primitives, undefined, null, number primitives, and string primitives)16:56
jterracegreat16:56
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Alex_Gaynorjterrace: the dtype one will be merged as soon as I finish yak shaving16:56
fijalsame for the multidim one16:57
fijalthere are two features missing and some yaks16:57
jterracepycollada might be a nice testing case since it uses only a small subset of numpy functionality16:57
kenaan12hager ppc-jit-backend 119b6289cbf90b 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/ppc_assembler.py: Use r0 as one-element stack16:57
jterraceif you need it16:57
jterracebut it uses multidim too16:57
Alex_Gaynorfijal: pff, your yaks don't involve needing to put optimizations in x86 backend or fixing bugs in rtuple16:58
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Alex_Gaynorfijal: any opinions about what level my hash bug should be fixed at?17:00
Alex_Gaynorfijal: Does http://paste.pocoo.org/show/508250/ look ok, or wrong level?17:04
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fijalso we can hash an empty string?17:07
fijalwould be cool if it comes with a test17:07
Alex_Gaynorfijal: a NULL string, yes17:07
Alex_Gaynorfijal: i checked in the test17:07
Alex_Gaynorfijal: so this is fixing it at an ok level?17:09
fijalI would think so17:09
Alex_Gaynorok thanks17:09
fijalI'm a bit worried though about reading the hash field17:10
fijaldo we have some shortcuts?17:10
kenaan12alex_gaynor default 1189c328e7b0fa 15/pypy/rpython/: handle hashing a None rstr, fixes the test I checked in yesterday.17:10
fijalor it's gonna be guard_nonnull simply?17:10
fijalI think so17:10
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fijalAlex_Gaynor: another fun fact. You can't inherit from all combinations of exceptions17:20
fijalthey have different C-level layouts17:20
Alex_Gaynorfijal: inconsistant base class stuff?17:20
fijalyeah17:20
fijallike OSError and LookupError17:21
fijaltook us a while when we rewrote exceptions to interp-level17:21
Alex_Gaynornice17:21
fijalno, this yuo can17:21
fijalbut there are combinations you can't17:21
Alex_GaynorLookupError just uses .args, IIRC17:21
Alex_Gaynorexceptions really need to have more semantic info on them17:21
fijalhm17:23
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fijalI can't find a combination that does not work17:23
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kenaan12alex_gaynor jit-dynamic-getarrayitem 119733b32ba514 15/pypy/: merged default in17:28
kenaan12alex_gaynor jit-dynamic-getarrayitem 11ee7c71b7e412 15/pypy/jit/: put tests in a sane subclass and only run the new ones in the x86 backend17:28
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/570 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]17:29
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/704 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]17:29
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/1844 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]17:29
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/1108 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]17:29
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Alex_Gaynorfijal: welcome back17:32
fijalI think that links to launchpad bugs in syslog are a bit of an exagerration17:32
amaury_fijal: class C(UnicodeDecodeError, OSError): pass17:33
amaury_does not work17:33
fijalamaury_: oh, ok17:33
Alex_Gaynoramaury_: whoever does this is crazy17:37
amaury_yes, it's not necessary17:38
amaury_C = (UnicodeDecodeError, OSError) has the same effect17:38
amaury_at least in "except C" statements17:39
Alex_Gaynoranyone creating subclasses for except C statements is even crazier17:39
amaury_with ABC there's probably a way to do it17:40
amaury___subclasscheck__17:40
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fijalpfff17:43
fijalAlex_Gaynor: do you remember which one is "C" order of storing matrices?17:43
fijalif I have [[1, 2], [3, 4]]17:43
fijalthis would be 1 2 3 417:43
fijalor 1 3 2 417:43
fijal?17:43
Alex_Gaynor1 2 3 4 I think17:43
Alex_Gaynorbecause you'd have int[][]17:43
Alex_Gaynorso X[dim1] is a pointer to {1, 2}17:44
fijalthen I think I got shard ordering wrong again -)17:45
fijal:-)17:45
Action: Alex_Gaynor smacks fijal with a trout17:45
fijalthe obvious gain is that you can iterate one by one and be good17:45
fijalbut it differs how do you initialize the thing17:46
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fijalanyway, I guess I give up for today then17:46
Alex_Gaynoreventually we have to support both C and Fortran ordering I think17:46
fijalyes17:46
kenaan12hager ppc-jit-backend 11b2ad6b915f48 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/: Implemented NEW_ARRAY17:46
fijalbut since I changed it twice already I know how hard it would be right?17:46
Alex_Gaynorfijal: I'm sure there's other nonsense to getting it right17:47
Alex_Gaynorlike doing broadcasting between arrays of different types17:47
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fijalright17:49
fijalit's stupidly hard enough to get right17:50
fijalbut now I know what to do17:50
Alex_Gaynorfijal: uhhh, why is one translation on tannit using 9GB of RAM?17:50
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kenaan12hager ppc-jit-backend 11991e2aba52b0 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/: Implemented NEWSTR and NEWUNICODE17:56
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bbot213Exception: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/570 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]18:04
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/571 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]18:08
kenaan12edelsohn ppc-jit-backend 11760676c29f43 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/regalloc.py: Correct indentation of prepare_setarrayitem_raw.18:09
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Alex_GaynorRhy0lite: out of curiosity, how do you find working on pypy compared to working on GCC?18:11
Rhy0litePyPy reminds me of GCC 10-15 years ago18:11
Alex_Gaynorin what sense?18:11
Rhy0litefun, bright, motivated developers working on exciting project18:12
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Rhy0liteAlex_Gaynor: PyPy has a lot of open, exciting projects to work on18:14
Rhy0liteand JITs and dynamic languages, like Python, are an open field18:14
Alex_GaynorRhy0lite: also read as: "Hairy yaks in strange places" :)18:15
Rhy0liteAnd you are an excellent yak hair stylist!18:15
Alex_GaynorWhen I was a kid I never said that was what I wanted to do on career day.18:16
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Rhy0liteNo one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!18:16
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Alex_GaynorPyPy: The Running of the Hairy Yaks.18:17
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Rhy0liteDoes PyPy 1.7 branch translate or any builds from buildbot?18:24
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/1108 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]18:38
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kenaan12pjenvey py3k 11706419ee2d49 15/pypy/objspace/std/: backout 21b2914fdb96 pending type.name switching to unicode18:53
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mattipfijal: ping19:26
Alex_Gaynorronny: ping19:27
bbot213Exception: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/571 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]19:27
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/572 [12alex]19:28
ronnyAlex_Gaynor: pong?19:31
Alex_Gaynorronny: I was going to ask you if you could ssh into tannit and cheeck the memory use on that build, but I remembered buildbot has a timer and saw it was runnign way longer than it shoudl have been.  Sorry about that.19:32
ronnyk, np19:32
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khsIs it possible to import modules in RPython using __import__(...) like in Python?19:39
exarkunRPython is defined using normal Python.19:40
exarkunYou can do anything that works in Python to construct the RPython.19:41
exarkunI don't know, but I would not expect __import__ to be RPython itself.19:41
khsNot for constructing RPython, but to dynamically import modules necessary during runtime19:42
khsok19:42
rguillebertI think you can use it outside of functions but not inside19:42
rguillebert(which is just was exarkun said...)19:43
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kenaan12hakanardo jit-targets 11520196bc50f9 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/compile.py: translation fix20:05
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/704 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]20:26
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/705 [12hakanardo, jit-targets]20:26
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djfroofysome told me that with an interpretted language "it impossible to develop an app that can compare with a20:48
djfroofynative application"20:48
djfroofydidn't pypy have a one or two benchmarks which actually beat compiled c?20:49
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rguillebertyes, there's one on the blog20:52
rguillebertabout string formatting20:52
rguillebertdjfroofy, when you say "native application" it doesn't include Java, does it ?20:53
djfroofyrguillebert: sort of. an internal flamewar thread at my office where our resident x86 expert is saying we should standaradize on one of native client, java or silverlight instead of html5 for our app development targeting web devices20:55
djfroofyso he's nearly grouping java and silverlight with "native application"20:56
htoothrotuhhh20:56
rguillebertso you're talking about statically typed languages rather than native applications20:56
djfroofyrguillebert: sorry i mispoke, this is the whole claim with one redaction http://paste.pocoo.org/show/508374/20:58
ronnydjfroofy: silverliht is dead, java fucks up stuff for the users and naive client is a mess of its own20:58
MostAwesomeDudedjfroofy: Yeah, I wouldn't trust any of those.20:58
rguillebert"HTML5 depends on a scripting language" ?!?20:58
MostAwesomeDudeHTML5 + JS is probably the best bet, but ugh.20:59
RhyoliteDart is the future!20:59
Rhyolite;-)20:59
MostAwesomeDudePfft.20:59
MostAwesomeDudeDid you know that Fx has Python support? They just don't ship it. I think they should.20:59
ronnydart is something you dont want in your eyes20:59
djfroofyyeah, the guy is a really smart dude. he's reversed a lot of hardware, wrote emulators for several game systems. but  i think he's confused. and he's confusing my ceo now.20:59
rguillebertthe first question is : do you need speed :)21:00
djfroofyin some instances yes: games21:01
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rguillebertwell, games are a specific topic21:01
rguillebertyou can really do games on pypy right now21:01
rguillebertbecause of the garbage collector21:01
djfroofyrguillebert: yes, i'm definitely not arguing we need to port assasin's creed (not my company's game for the record) to html521:02
djfroofyrguillebert: i know also eve most of eve online's client code is even python (albeit stackless, not pypy)21:02
ronnydjfroofy: whats the complexity of the games? webgl datastructures + jit can be pretty close to c speed whise if used correct21:03
rguillebertdjfroofy, afaik it's mostly the UI that is done in python21:03
djfroofyronny: well here's kind of the funny catch. the only games we do in house are on par with "angry birds" in terms of complexity21:03
rguillebert...21:04
rguillebertangry birds isn't written with silverlight21:05
rguillebertand it's doing pretty well performance wise21:05
ronnydjfroofy: then anything will do21:05
rguillebertalso "They all use virtual machines that don't model the real CPU at all"21:05
rguillebertbut jitted code do :)21:06
rguillebertunless assembly doesn't model the real cpu21:06
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timonatorwell, to be fair, there is a lot of stuff the cpu does to assembly code that gets executed21:07
rguillebertbut I think we're stuck with assembly :)21:08
djfroofythe other interesting argument and he and others are trying to make is that compiled code is better because the code is drm and your get better security through obscurity through compiled native code 21:12
rguillebertdjfroofy, I think you're facing a "real programmers write C code" kind of guy21:12
djfroofyrguillebert: oh yes21:12
ronnythere are less and less reasons to take the c for the performance21:13
rguillebertmaybe you should abandon the performance talk and speak about development cost, that kind of stuff21:13
djfroofythis is the guy i'm talking about: http://memegenerator.net/instance/1146019521:14
rguillebertbut the argument you've shown us is just FUD21:15
djfroofyrguillebert: yeah those are the points i'm trying to harp on. but he believes in that regard should be sticking to flash for making our apps b/c "RAD tools are better"21:16
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exarkunWhat did he say when Adobe announced that flash is over?21:16
rguillebertalso RAD stuff are usually not very maintainable21:17
rguillebert(I've just realized that I'm doing FUD as well)21:17
djfroofyexarkun: yeah i pointed to that announcement about flash's view on the future and he hasn't responded yet. did have some things to say about apple: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/508381/21:19
djfroofys/flash's view/adobe's view/21:19
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rguillebertFlash and HTML5 are designed for desktop interfaces21:20
djfroofyrguillebert: his statement was absurd. like there's double-blind study that shows you can crank out better apps faster with rad tools than other alternatives. and again it could depend largely on the domain.21:20
djfroofy"It does NOT make building apps easier. Yes, it's a DOM, we have21:20
djfroofymillions of those, and Flash has a DOM and RAD tools that make Flash21:20
djfroofydevelopers consistantly outperform (in development time) HTML521:20
djfroofydevelopers"21:21
rguillebertEvery new Apple mobile device and every new Mac — along with the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser — supports web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. These web standards are open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient. They allow web designers and developers to create advanced graphics, typography, animations, and transitions. Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can st21:21
rguillebertart using them today.21:21
rguillebertapple.com/html521:21
djfroofyapologies for ranting off-topic, btw, here guys and distracting you from making python faster ;)21:22
rguillebertit's only half off-topic, "dynamically typed languages are slow' is what PyPy is fighting against21:23
djfroofyrguillebert: yeah, i figured there could be some sympatico there.21:23
rguillebertalso21:25
rguillebertthere's a port of quake2 in html521:25
djfroofyunrelated but more on-topic, has anyone done much serious with audio and pypy? googling leads me only to a few sketchy, half-cocked things.21:26
bbot23Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/1844 [12alex, jit-dynamic-getarrayitem]21:26
rguillebertthere has been video stuff but I don't know about audio21:26
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djfroofyrguillebert: thanks, i'm hoping i don't have to roll up my sleeves and port portaudio to ctypes.21:28
rguillebertyou can try cpyext21:29
djfroofyrguillebert: also do you think it would be a better strategy (and perf is key here) to do such a thing in rpython or just use ctypes?21:29
rguillebertctypes21:29
rguillebertthere's nice optimization for ctypes code21:29
rguillebertand you can really write rpython to make libraries21:30
rguillebertbecause you have to translated the whole interpreter each time you want to change something21:30
djfroofyso even in audio where the slightest crackle or pop in real time audio processing would be fail? (i know this is a vaguely stated problem)21:30
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rguillebertI don't have enough experience in real-time computing to really help you21:32
rguillebertbut as long as there's no concurrent garbage collector in PyPy you can't do real-time things21:32
rguillebertbecause the garbage collector can pause the entire application for quite some time21:33
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djfroofyrguillebert: hmmm ... yeah i guess then it's just a question of whether the pause is long enough to cause cause buffer starvation21:34
djfroofy"quite some time" actually kind of scares me21:35
exarkun"Real time" audio is pretty easy21:35
exarkunI haven't tried anything on PyPy, but considering how easy it is even on CPython I'd be surprised if PyPy can't manage.21:36
djfroofywith just cpython i'm actually very good performance without any gc pause. albeit my trick is trying to make sure the garbage collector doesn't run: allocating objects before the start of a song and holding onto references21:37
rguillebertthe edge-detection that has been presented at EuroPython was really good21:38
exarkunI don't remember any particular GC tricks in Shtoom21:38
djfroofybut this is for a pretty pretty course granularity: playing fluidsynth instruments at bpm < 30021:38
exarkunA softphone only needs to play about 50 samples per second, though.21:39
djfroofyexarkun: i guess i should look at shtoom. things got dismal when i introduced pyaudio and tried to do real time effects over sound.21:39
djfroofyby "real time" i mean 44100 or whatever21:39
exarkun44100 samples? :)  Or 3 samples per second, containing 44100Hz audio?21:39
rguillebertdjfroofy, http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2011/07/realtime-image-processing-in-python.html21:40
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djfroofyrguillebert: thanks for the link21:41
bbot213Exception: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/572 [12alex]21:43
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djfroofyexarkun: x samples per second maybe. with regard to fluidsynth though i am able to easily get up to ~500 bpm (with 24 ticks per beat) withouth any stutter. and keep processes in sync.21:44
kenaan12alex_gaynor jit-dynamic-getarrayitem 11ec49334c3989 15/: close for merge21:45
kenaan12alex_gaynor default 11bd871afa3feb 15/pypy/: Merged jit-dynamic-getarrayitem.  Added support for creating custom getarrayitems at jit-compile time.  Steal...21:45
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kenaan12alex_gaynor numpy-dtype-refactor 110b6ec862fb6e 15/pypy/: merged default in21:57
kenaan12alex_gaynor numpy-dtype-refactor 11b1025f8b8ca2 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: convert to use the new libffi support21:57
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amaury_testing a cpyext extension module on top of an *interpreted* pypy is fun22:00
Action: Alex_Gaynor whacks the translator with a stick22:01
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mattipfijal: ping22:02
rguillebertamaury_, define "fun" :)22:03
amaury_when it segfaults, you have 3 different stacks22:04
amaury_one in C (the host python interpreter)22:04
amaury_one in python (executing Rpython code, ll2ctypes &co)22:05
amaury_and the script you run in pypy22:05
rguillebertah ah22:05
amaury_which calls back to C, since it's an extension module22:05
amaury_with a lot of ctypes in between, of course22:06
amaury_but at least, it *works*22:06
amaury_well, except for the segfault :-)22:06
Alex_Gaynordefine works :D22:06
mattipamaury_: ping22:08
amaury_pong22:08
amaury_how is wxPython doing?22:08
mattipWell, I only have ne machine that has enough memory to build pypy.22:08
mattips/ne/one22:08
mattipand it has been too busy to build the pypy nightly.22:09
mattipBut I saw you posted some screenshots. :)22:09
amaury_yes :-)22:09
mattipCan you put the patch somewhere visible to the wxPython people?22:10
amaury_mattip: did you try http://buildbot.pypy.org/nightly/trunk/22:10
amaury_to get a fresh pypy22:10
mattipYes, connection from here is really slow, and timezone problems, blah blah blah.22:12
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amaury_ok22:14
amaury_yes, I'll try to clean the patch and post it soon22:15
amaury_I'm also working on the next generation of wxPython22:15
amaury_"phoenix"22:15
mattip"just when you thought it was safe to walk the streets again"22:15
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mattipamaury_: Is your comment above about segfaults having to do with wxPython refcounting?22:19
amaury_no, I'm trying the new phoenix version22:19
amaury_which assumes a lot about the CPython API22:20
amaury_so I'm trying to rewrite the "sip" layer22:20
amaury_and avoid this metaclass with a custom allocator22:21
amaury_crazy code22:21
Action: mattip Reading about phoenix22:24
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bbot24Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/705 [12hakanardo, jit-targets]22:36
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bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/14022:43
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kenaan12alex_gaynor numpy-dtype-refactor 11b2bbe6d8f5fa 15/pypy/jit/backend/llgraph/llimpl.py: Teach llimpl about {get,set}interiorfield_raw with floats.22:51
kenaan12alex_gaynor numpy-dtype-refactor 11b594ceafe738 15/pypy/rlib/objectmodel.py: Added a decorator for specialize:call_location22:51
kenaan12alex_gaynor numpy-dtype-refactor 11eb398ab0ef00 15/pypy/rlib/libffi.py: Specialize these properly22:51
kenaan12alex_gaynor numpy-dtype-refactor 11ea7461f576fa 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/test/test_zjit.py: Update these tests.22:51
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kenaan12mattip numpy-multidim-shards 11623b485bea06 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/interp_numarray.py: start to fix descr_repr23:15
kenaan12mattip numpy-multidim-shards 11f508193f73f0 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: split tests, test_repr passes23:15
kenaan12mattip numpy-multidim-shards 11989579c2237f 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: code cleanup23:15
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kenaan12amauryfa default 11dff1cac01f75 15/pypy/module/cpyext/presetup.py: Allows presetup.py to execute setup.py scripts which use the "if __name__ == '__main__'" idiom23:47
kenaan12amauryfa default 11365410e9e95e 15/pypy/module/cpyext/include/modsupport.h: Update PyMODINIT_FUNC for C++ extensions.23:47
chronitisanyone on py3k around?23:53
amaury_a couple of minutes23:55
chronitisI've been going through trying to clear up the remaining unittest fails for <bytes>23:56
chronitiswhich is mostly done, in a shallow way at least23:56
chronitisbytes is still named string in most places - is there any good reason not to do a wholesale rename to avoid the confusion this currently confuses?23:57
amaury_regular merges from trunk, I think23:57
chronitisand what is the best way of handling the fact that most methods only support <bytes> and maybe <bytearray> at the moment but should handle anything buffer-like23:58
chronitisa specialised method__String_String... version and a duck-typed method__String_ANY...?23:58
chronitis(eg, some tests fail for not accepting <memoryview> as a bytes-like object)23:59
amaury_yes, when the versions differ enough23:59
--- Wed Nov 16 201100:00

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