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| kenaan | 12gutworth default 11619c71657ffc 15/pypy/jit/codewriter/call.py: less indirection | 01:56 |
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| lahwran | can rpython code reference C libraries? | 02:46 |
| gutworth | yes | 02:46 |
| lahwran | is there anything about rpython that makes it unsuitable for an actual application implementation? | 02:47 |
| lahwran | as opposed to the "normal" pypy route, which is to run things on top of pypy-jit | 02:47 |
| gutworth | yes, it's painful | 02:53 |
| gutworth | slow to translate | 02:53 |
| gutworth | obscure errors | 02:53 |
| gutworth | frankly | 02:53 |
| gutworth | unless you're writing an interpreter, use normal python! | 02:54 |
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| Kronuz | hello | 04:13 |
| gutworth | hi | 04:14 |
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| Kronuz | :) | 04:22 |
| Kronuz | hey, I'm starting to dive a bit into pypy | 04:22 |
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| Kronuz | and I was wondering& I could compile one of my modules (CPython extension)& but it runs much slower here | 04:23 |
| Kronuz | how can I make a pypy optimized extension? | 04:23 |
| gutworth | is it in C | 04:26 |
| gutworth | ? | 04:26 |
| Kronuz | C version is: 1433.018ms (in pypy) vs 215.353ms (CPython) | 04:27 |
| Kronuz | I tried the same pure python algorithms in pypy: 5473.896ms (python) vs 4142.747ms (pypy) | 04:27 |
| Kronuz | yes, C | 04:27 |
| gutworth | you can't then | 04:27 |
| Kronuz | I compiled with no problems in PyPy | 04:27 |
| gutworth | you did it correctly by rewriting in python | 04:28 |
| Kronuz | only it's much slower | 04:28 |
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| gutworth | yes, you might be able to run them | 04:28 |
| gutworth | but it'll be slower | 04:28 |
| Kronuz | the python version was the first one, but it's slower anyway | 04:28 |
| gutworth | but pypy: 5473.896ms (python) vs 4142.747ms (pypy) | 04:28 |
| gutworth | doesn't that indicate pypy was faster? | 04:28 |
| Kronuz | it was | 04:28 |
| Kronuz | but 4142ms vs 220ms | 04:29 |
| Kronuz | ... | 04:29 |
| Kronuz | :( | 04:29 |
| gutworth | yes, we don't always beat extension modules | 04:29 |
| gutworth | it may be possible to either optimize your code or improve pypy | 04:29 |
| Kronuz | if I could make a pypy extension for this case | 04:29 |
| Kronuz | (I mean a pypy optimized extension) | 04:30 |
| Kronuz | (in some way) | 04:30 |
| gutworth | that's probably impractical | 04:30 |
| Kronuz | also, I wanted to us postgresql | 04:31 |
| gutworth | you can use https://bitbucket.org/alex_gaynor/pypy-postgresql/overview | 04:34 |
| Kronuz | oh, yeah, I saw that one | 04:34 |
| Kronuz | but I have to recompile everything, right? | 04:34 |
| Kronuz | I truly wish I could have pypy C extensions | 04:34 |
| Kronuz | which are as efficient as CPython's (even if I have to rewrite it) | 04:35 |
| gutworth | that's probably never going to happen | 04:35 |
| Kronuz | like this, my extension I mentioned | 04:35 |
| gutworth | we'd prefer to fix things, so python code runs fast enough | 04:36 |
| Kronuz | there's no seemingly possible way to get the same performance in pypy as I'm getting with CPython | 04:36 |
| Kronuz | (in my extension) | 04:36 |
| Kronuz | :( | 04:36 |
| mikefc | kronuz: what does your extension do? | 04:36 |
| Kronuz | mikefc: https://github.com/Kronuz/pyScss/blob/master/scss/src/_scss.c | 04:37 |
| Kronuz | it's a SCSS blocks scanner | 04:37 |
| mikefc | Sass CSS? | 04:38 |
| Kronuz | yep | 04:38 |
| Kronuz | (it's part of my scss compiler for python) | 04:39 |
| Kronuz | it's quite fast, but the pure python is too slow& now in pypy, even my C extension is "slow" | 04:39 |
| mikefc | does the python code run for long enough for the pypy jit to kick in? | 04:40 |
| Kronuz | it's in a cycle | 04:41 |
| Kronuz | (for timing and profiling) | 04:41 |
| Kronuz | https://github.com/Kronuz/pyScss/blob/master/scss/src/scanner.py | 04:41 |
| Kronuz | that's the one that uses the extension and implements two pure python alternatives | 04:42 |
| Kronuz | (one exactly the same as the C, other "optimized" for python) | 04:42 |
| Kronuz | &a weird thing I noticed in my extension (that's different from CPython) &is I'm getting: AttributeError: 'builtin_function_or_method' object has no attribute '__name__' | 04:45 |
| Kronuz | when I try to get the name of one of my functions in my C extension | 04:46 |
| Kronuz | mikefc: in the pypy fork support for pgsql, would it be easy to upgrade to pypy 1.7? is there no way to compile or whatever, RPython extensions separately from the whole build process? | 04:48 |
| bbot2 | 3Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-Ojit-no-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/837 | 04:50 |
| bbot2 | 3Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-32/builds/1488 | 04:51 |
| mikefc | kronuz: sorry i can't really help you. I'm just a pypy newbie as well. | 04:51 |
| gutworth | Kronuz: no, there isn't | 04:53 |
| gutworth | the psql branch probably just needs a merge from default | 04:53 |
| gutworth | fixed __name__ problem | 04:55 |
| kenaan | 12gutworth default 11819faa2129a8 15/pypy/module/cpyext/: give W_PyCFunctionObject __name__ | 04:55 |
| Kronuz | ?? | 04:55 |
| Kronuz | O_O | 04:55 |
| Kronuz | gutworth: what would you say is the "way" to get into pypy? | 05:05 |
| Kronuz | as to start learning the source code and the way it does things and all? | 05:05 |
| bbot2 | 3Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/1170 | 05:05 |
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| Kronuz | is pypy-c (in the docs) the same as bin/pypy in the precompiled distributions? | 05:37 |
| Kronuz | (http://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/getting-started-python.html talks about pypy-c) | 05:37 |
| Kronuz | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/525253/ | 05:45 |
| Kronuz | I got that when I tried compiling :( | 05:46 |
| Ademan | Kronuz: where did you get that pypy source? Alex's branch? | 06:04 |
| Kronuz | yep | 06:05 |
| Ademan | er, fork | 06:05 |
| Kronuz | and I pulled the latest from pypy/pypy | 06:05 |
| Kronuz | (there were no merge conflicts but two very simple ones) | 06:05 |
| Kronuz | I remember me trying to compile it before, some months ago | 06:06 |
| Kronuz | but I also couldn't :( | 06:06 |
| Ademan | Kronuz: why are you using that branch? there are a couple(?) of ctypes based postgres connectors that should work with PyPy and be good. | 06:07 |
| Kronuz | what's the best one? | 06:07 |
| Kronuz | I just want to get the best possible performance and be able to use django | 06:07 |
| Kronuz | (as to try to use it in production if I can) | 06:08 |
| Ademan | I can't speak to "best", but you won't have to deal with this silliness if you can use stock pypy-c and a ctypes based binding | 06:08 |
| Kronuz | what exactly is that ctype thing I've been reading about? | 06:10 |
| Kronuz | is that a way to make extensions? | 06:10 |
| Ademan | sort of. ctypes lets python code call C code (and vice versa in some situations) | 06:11 |
| Ademan | Kronuz: http://docs.python.org/library/ctypes.html#module-ctypes has a couple of examples | 06:12 |
| Kronuz | Ademan: are modules using ctype also slower? | 06:13 |
| Kronuz | (like common C extensions) | 06:13 |
| Ademan | Previously they absolutely were. I'm not sure about now. However remember that database access will be much much much slower than the cost of calling a function :-) | 06:14 |
| Kronuz | Ademan: do you have a suggestion of one of such pgsql ctype extensions? | 06:15 |
| Ademan | ctypes is now JITed, I don't know how close to optimal it is, but it's pretty darn good, enough I'd call it negligible | 06:15 |
| Ademan | well that psycopg2-ctypes seems active at least, and is concerned with test passage. I don't have any informed recommendation for you though | 06:16 |
| Kronuz | I'll convert my extension to ctypes and I'll tell you ;) | 06:16 |
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| phrearch | hello | 07:31 |
| phrearch | does zope run on pypy ? | 07:31 |
| jerith | I believe not, but have no personal experience in the matter. | 07:41 |
| jerith | I'm told they rely too heavily on C extensions and such. | 07:41 |
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| mikefc | can i use cython with pypy? | 08:04 |
| fijal | no | 08:04 |
| mikefc | what was the google SOC about then? | 08:05 |
| mikefc | cython compiling to pypy? | 08:05 |
| mikefc | "Python backend for Cython using PyPy's FFI". | 08:05 |
| fijal | didn't finish | 08:07 |
| fijal | anyway, why would you do that? | 08:07 |
| kenaan | 12hakanardo jit-improve-nested-loops 117ba363df8be4 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/test/test_ajit.py: we get one extra bridge now | 08:07 |
| kenaan | 12hakanardo jit-label-counters 11167d9feec558 15/pypy/jit/backend/x86/: use one counter per label | 08:07 |
| fijal | mikefc: why do you want to use cython & pypy | 08:07 |
| fijal | ? | 08:07 |
| mikefc | fijal: not sure. just thinking. sometimes you might like to create a fast algo at full C speed and not just hope that pypy can JIT it properly? | 08:08 |
| fijal | no, you never want to do that | 08:09 |
| fijal | JIT is faster than cython most of the time btw | 08:09 |
| fijal | you can however help the JIT to be faster | 08:09 |
| mikefc | oh. never really benchmarked it. | 08:09 |
| fijal | so instead of writing C, you write a careful python | 08:09 |
| Alex_Gaynor | hakanardo: is it just me or is the new label code almost too easy :) | 08:09 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/762 [12hakanardo, jit-label-counters] | 08:09 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-64/builds/654 [12hakanardo, jit-label-counters] | 08:09 |
| mikefc | fijal: so how do I help the jit to be faster with careful python? | 08:10 |
| hakanardo | Alex_Gaynor: glad you like it :) | 08:10 |
| mikefc | (feel free to point me at a FAQ) | 08:10 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: also requires extra work by jitviewer | 08:10 |
| fijal | but it's a good complexity shift | 08:10 |
| fijal | mikefc: I think I wrote a blog post, but generally you have to be proficient with jitviewer and look there (for now at least) | 08:11 |
| mikefc | is there a faq/tute on using the jitviewer? | 08:13 |
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| hakanardo | fijal: is it import_log that should slice the traces up into separate loops? | 08:52 |
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| hakanardo | fijal: are there any tests for parse_log_counts? | 08:58 |
| bbot2 | 4Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/762 [12hakanardo, jit-label-counters] | 09:07 |
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| fijal | mikefc: jitviewer is broken on nightly now :/ | 09:11 |
| fijal | but no, there is just README there | 09:12 |
| kenaan | 12hakanardo jit-label-counters 11b9fedb0f9f96 15/pypy/tool/jitlogparser/: split traces into parts going from one label to the next | 09:21 |
| hakanardo | fijal: I got to run now, but have a look at that last checkin | 09:21 |
| hakanardo | the new Part class should probably be a subclass of something? | 09:22 |
| fijal | ok | 09:25 |
| fijal | hakanardo: th | 09:42 |
| fijal | hakanardo: thx | 09:42 |
| fijal | I'll look into it (christmas) | 09:42 |
| bbot2 | 3Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-app-level-linux-x86-64/builds/654 [12hakanardo, jit-label-counters] | 09:55 |
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| Action: fijal looks for his bio | 15:22 | |
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| fijal | nedbat: hi | 16:14 |
| nedbat | fijal: hi | 16:18 |
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| fijal | nedbat: so I think at the end of the day it was me not coverage that got it wrong :) | 16:24 |
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| nedbat | fijal: i'm glad you got to the bottom of it! :) | 16:26 |
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| fijal | hakanardo: uh, no, I'm afraid this approach is a bit broken | 16:42 |
| fijal | ah no, it's fine | 16:43 |
| kenaan | 12fijal jit-label-counters 111e33997d6c55 15/pypy/jit/backend/x86/assembler.py: hopefully fix tests | 16:44 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/763 [12fijal, jit-label-counters] | 16:44 |
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| ivan | I think more people would use pypy if the binaries weren't linked against a libssl that no one has | 17:11 |
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| rguillebert | ivan, it's the one available on ubuntu so I wouldn't say no-one... | 17:31 |
| fijal | ivan: I do | 17:31 |
| ivan | cool. but Gentoo and CentOS 6.2 don't :( | 17:31 |
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| fijal | well | 17:35 |
| fijal | why don't you use a pypy packaged in gentoo then? | 17:35 |
| fijal | new ubuntu as well | 17:35 |
| fijal | but you can't just alienate half of your users to please the other half | 17:35 |
| fijal | ivan: binary distributions on linux are broken :( | 17:35 |
| fijal | I | 17:35 |
| fijal | m sorry | 17:35 |
| ivan | my gentoo is in a VM that is too small to compile pypy | 17:36 |
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| ivan | can you just statically link everything somehow? | 17:36 |
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| bbot2 | 4Failure: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/763 [12fijal, jit-label-counters] | 17:44 |
| nirbheek | can just include newer openssl with the build and use an LD_LIBRARY_PATH wrapper | 17:49 |
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| Rhyolite | fijal: hi | 18:19 |
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| fijal | Rhyolite: hi | 18:52 |
| fijal | Rhyolite: I disagree with you :) | 18:52 |
| Rhyolite | ok | 18:52 |
| fijal | I claim google would be more happy selling search than ads | 18:52 |
| fijal | it's just unsellable | 18:52 |
| fijal | now my question is more "why?" | 18:52 |
| fijal | yes, you're right in a sense they built business model that way | 18:52 |
| fijal | just because they had to build some | 18:52 |
| Rhyolite | I think Google would be happy selling anything | 18:52 |
| Rhyolite | anything technological | 18:53 |
| fijal | obviously so | 18:53 |
| Rhyolite | remember that they invest much more R&D in advertising than anything else | 18:53 |
| Rhyolite | advertising on any platform | 18:53 |
| fijal | they have good reasons | 18:53 |
| Rhyolite | R&D: 70% ads, 20% search, 10% everything else. | 18:53 |
| Rhyolite | slightly different now with android, but that's basically it | 18:53 |
| Rhyolite | but search is a commodity | 18:54 |
| Rhyolite | and most consumers won't pay for better search | 18:54 |
| Rhyolite | advertisers will pay for targeted advertising to high-quality consumers | 18:55 |
| Rhyolite | fijal: Google realized that there was inefficiency in the advertising market that they could extract to make a profit | 18:57 |
| Rhyolite | there is not a similar inefficiency in the search market | 18:57 |
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| mattip | fijal: hi | 19:27 |
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| Rhyolite | fijal: Merry Christmas | 19:49 |
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| fijal | Rhyolite: :) | 20:02 |
| Alex_Gaynor | Rhyolite, fijal: You want an inefficiency for a PyPy developer to captilize on? Writing C/C++/Java ;) | 20:03 |
| Rhyolite | Alex_Gaynor: exactly | 20:03 |
| Rhyolite | Alex_Gaynor: btw, Merry Christmas | 20:03 |
| Alex_Gaynor | I don't celebrate Christmas, but thanks, and the same to you! | 20:03 |
| Action: fijal does not celebrate christmas either | 20:04 | |
| Rhyolite | Happy Holidays | 20:04 |
| fijal | I don't observe holidays either | 20:04 |
| fijal | not sure about alex | 20:04 |
| Rhyolite | joyous winter solstice? | 20:04 |
| fijal | summer | 20:04 |
| Rhyolite | yes, summer solstice | 20:04 |
| fijal | Rhyolite, Alex_Gaynor: have you seen the link to the science thing using pypy? | 20:05 |
| fijal | I forgot the exact description :) | 20:05 |
| Rhyolite | yes, that's great | 20:05 |
| fijal | efficient qualitative something | 20:05 |
| fijal | this is an example we really want for our talk - how pypy enables to do stuff that's otherwise impossible in python | 20:05 |
| Rhyolite | yes, pypy infrastructure makes dynamic languages, especially Python, practical for applications requiring high performance | 20:06 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: the mailing list post? | 20:08 |
| Rhyolite | fijal's tweet | 20:08 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: yeah, also that | 20:10 |
| Alex_Gaynor | nea6t | 20:11 |
| fijal | btw | 20:11 |
| fijal | http://www.bouletcorp.com/blog/hidden/quantum-pixel/ | 20:11 |
| Rhyolite | fijal: heh! Have you ever read Flatland? | 20:16 |
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| rguillebert | it's strange to see someone being called Boulet in english | 21:32 |
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| Ademan | rguillebert: I saw a post recently about merging your branch, what's new with that? | 22:03 |
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| rguillebert | there has been bugs introduced by the rebasing | 22:04 |
| rguillebert | so I'm going to fix that first | 22:04 |
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| lesshaste | is pypy in any way compatible with pytables? | 22:16 |
| mikefc | run it and see :) | 22:17 |
| mikefc | looking at the pytables page though, it might be a problem | 22:18 |
| mikefc | pytables needs numpy. which is still "in-progress" in pypy | 22:18 |
| Ademan | rguillebert: well keep up the good work, I'm definitely a fan of your project | 22:18 |
| rguillebert | ;) | 22:19 |
| mikefc | and numexpr looks interesting, but it's jitting numpy code (i think). may not be needed once pypy's numpy is more complete. | 22:19 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/183 | 22:30 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-macosx-x86-32/builds/755 | 22:30 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/992 | 22:30 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64-2/builds/11 | 22:30 |
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| lesshaste | mikefc: right.. it seems to try to do lots of clever stuff which looks unlikely to be compatible with pypy | 23:19 |
| lesshaste | I will try it and see though :) | 23:19 |
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| mikefc | lesshaste: i think if you could remove the weird cache compression, and the numpy jitter, you may have more luck in getting it to run. | 23:26 |
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| kenaan | 12mattip matrixmath-dot 1162ab064ed939 15/: hg merge with default | 23:32 |
| kenaan | 12mattip matrixmath-dot 11495d8ce73189 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: remove all ufunc changes, revert to default version | 23:32 |
| kenaan | 12mattip matrixmath-dot 1140ef4fde1202 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/interp_numarray.py: clean up to_str a tiny bit | 23:32 |
| kenaan | 12mattip matrixmath-dot 11d1038ba54b76 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/interp_numarray.py: clean up to_str a tiny bit (2) | 23:32 |
| kenaan | 12mattip numpypy-axisops 113cfc0b93cb23 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: test, implement improved AxisIterator | 23:32 |
| kenaan | 12mattip numpypy-axisops 11a4ff50ca85e8 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: added dim arg to sum, but unused | 23:32 |
| kenaan | 12mattip numpypy-axisops 11f06e38ca0d00 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: translation fixes | 23:32 |
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| --- Sun Dec 25 2011 | 00:00 | |
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