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| lahwran | https://gist.github.com/c6cafb907345d79a69b8 | 03:49 |
| lahwran | those are the modules pypy_interact imports, directly or indirectly | 03:49 |
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| lahwran | what is the purpose of pypy/tool/killsubprocess.py? what about it is better than simply Popen.kill()? | 04:07 |
| mikefc | lahwran: Python 2.6 (final) was released on October 1st, 2008 | 04:33 |
| mikefc | lahwran: Popen.kill() New in version 2.6. | 04:33 |
| mikefc | lahwran: hg log pypy/tool/killsubprocess.py => date: Fri Sep 07 09:53:45 2007 +0000 | 04:33 |
| lahwran | is that really it? | 04:34 |
| mikefc | maybe. it looks like Armin wrote it way back when so that he could reliably kill things. | 04:34 |
| lahwran | <KirkMcDonald> lahwran: That one polls the pid first. | 04:34 |
| lahwran | <KirkMcDonald> lahwran: So it will silently return if the process has already ended. | 04:34 |
| lahwran | from #python | 04:34 |
| mikefc | worth asking on the mailing list. | 04:34 |
| lahwran | ahhhh, I don't like the mailing list, so slow | 04:34 |
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| CIA-53 | 03arigo 07roundup * 10#967/itertools.imap significantly (order of magnitude) slower than map or gencomps: | 07:45 |
| CIA-53 | Indeed, there is a special case for list(generator). It's a bit annoying that | 07:45 |
| CIA-53 | the more general list(iterator) is not sped up by the JIT at all. ... * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue967 | 07:45 |
| kenaan | 12arigo default 11d0d0b1bbbee8 15/LICENSE: Update the year here (fix tool/test/test_license.py) | 07:52 |
| lahwran | bots, bots everywhere | 08:02 |
| mikefc | i guess people are either drinking or sleeping ... | 08:18 |
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| mattip | mikefc: hi | 10:16 |
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| mikefc | hey mattip | 10:20 |
| mattip | You asked about get_concrete | 10:22 |
| mikefc | yeah. i tried adding it to Scalar, but got ztranslate test errors. | 10:22 |
| mattip | It allows lazy evaluation | 10:22 |
| mattip | like (a+a)*(a+a) will evaluate (a+a) only once | 10:23 |
| mattip | No point in doing it for scalars, doesn't save much. | 10:23 |
| mikefc | mattip: i was getting a "not implemented" exception when i did "repr(numpy.array(0.2))" | 10:24 |
| mikefc | because get_concrete doesn't exist on Scalar | 10:24 |
| mikefc | i've posted a patch to bugs.pypy that tried to fix a few things with agaynor's problems with numpypy.zeros([]) | 10:25 |
| mattip | So the problem is that something broke repr(Scalar) | 10:25 |
| mikefc | i don't know if repr(Scalar) ever worked. there are no tests for it :) | 10:25 |
| mattip | and whoever wrote repr (me) didn't test for it :( | 10:25 |
| mikefc | heh | 10:25 |
| mattip | I wanted to rework to_str anyway, I wrote it when both multidim numpypy and me were new to the game. | 10:26 |
| mattip | So now I have some motivation. | 10:26 |
| mattip | Give me a week or so | 10:27 |
| mikefc | I'm just fiddling around the edges at the moment trying to unravel the code. | 10:27 |
| mattip | Yes, it's a bit daunting. | 10:28 |
| mikefc | trying to add a cross() at the moment. but wondering why repr(numpy.array([1,2,3])) is different between us and regular numpy | 10:28 |
| mattip | what's the diff? | 10:28 |
| mikefc | numpy: 'array([1, 2, 3])' | 10:29 |
| mikefc | numpypy: 'array([1, 2, 3], dtype=int64)' | 10:29 |
| mikefc | i thought there was an if/then that suppressed it in the code if it was int64 | 10:30 |
| mattip | OK, that's another bug. The test for that only really works on 32bit. | 10:30 |
| -mrmist (~mrmist@freenode/staff/pdpc.active.mrmist) to $$*- [Global Notice] - With this hour we welcome the New Year for American Samoa- Pago Pago, Niue (Alofi), Midway Islands, Jarvis Isl., Kingman Reef and Palmyra Atoll and that brings most of the populated world into 2012. I hope everyone enjoys a Happy New Year and thank you all for flying freenode! | 10:31 | |
| mikefc | want me to put it on bugs.pypy? | 10:31 |
| mattip | I am not in a place where I can really see code now, but it has to do with dtypes | 10:31 |
| mikefc | there's a line in descr_repr which says: "if not int64dtype, append 'dtype=dtype.name'" | 10:32 |
| mattip | If I haven't fixed it in a week, post a bug. It's not something I think anyone else but you and me care enough about to fix. | 10:32 |
| mikefc | is anyone looking at numpypy besides you? | 10:33 |
| mattip | Do you know the story about the blind men and the elephant? numpypy is a big elephant. | 10:34 |
| mattip | I am trying to push in features. Others are working on performance. | 10:34 |
| mattip | Mainly what is missing to move things forward is a commercial interest. | 10:35 |
| mikefc | and I'm trying to figure out how to read the code! | 10:35 |
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| mattip | Or more plainly: cash. | 10:35 |
| mikefc | got time to answer a quick question on numarray ? | 10:37 |
| mattip | I have time to listen :) | 10:37 |
| mikefc | to implement the cross product, i pass two arrays, a & b. But how do i do something like a[0] * b[1] in interp_numarray? | 10:38 |
| mikefc | there's a whole lot of indirection to ufuncs that most other functions are relying on. | 10:39 |
| mikefc | i can't find a nice out-of-order func to use as a template. | 10:39 |
| mikefc | hmm. is it just .getitem(index)? | 10:40 |
| mattip | You probably want to use an iterator. | 10:41 |
| mikefc | perhaps, but crossproduct doesn't really do things "in order" | 10:42 |
| mikefc | (and i'm really not sure I'm up to working out iterators at this stage) | 10:44 |
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| mattip | So maybe do it in app_numarray.py for the mean time, in pure python, without having to worry about all the rpython stuff. | 10:47 |
| mattip | In the "final version" it would want to use lazy evaluation and all fijal's wonderful signature array/iterator stuff. | 10:48 |
| mikefc | ooooooooh. is *that* what app_numpy is! | 10:50 |
| mikefc | it's a maze trying to figure out what goes where, what gets defined where. | 10:52 |
| mikefc | so appleveldefs are pure python? do they get jitted at all? | 10:52 |
| verte-wleslie | pure python gets jitted | 10:53 |
| verte-wleslie | that's what the jit operates on | 10:53 |
| mikefc | verte-wleslie: thanks. | 10:54 |
| mattip | mikefc: goota go. Any more quick questions? | 10:54 |
| mattip | gotta* | 10:55 |
| mikefc | nope. thanks. I'm rereading the micronumpy dir in a new light now :) | 10:55 |
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| lahwran | is numpy even necessary on pypy? | 10:55 |
| lahwran | in terms of speed, not compatibility | 10:55 |
| mattip | Well, I would like to see pypy support scipy without too much rewrite. | 10:57 |
| mikefc | there's that whole numpy C api argument that I don't understand yet... | 10:58 |
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| Action: mikefc reads the coding guide for a third time. some of it makes sense this time! | 11:30 | |
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| kenaan | 12arigo concurrent-marksweep 11ca9580042f31 15/pypy/rpython/memory/gc/concurrentgen.txt: Add a section to the documentation. Not implemented yet. | 11:45 |
| kenaan | 12arigo concurrent-marksweep 1101950ba0f81a 15/: hg merge default | 11:45 |
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| fijal | hi | 13:16 |
| lesshaste | hi | 13:16 |
| fijal | lesshaste: hi | 13:17 |
| lesshaste | happy new year :) | 13:20 |
| fijal | heh, you too | 13:23 |
| lesshaste | I was thinking about the loop problem.. and decided I didn't really understand it :) | 13:25 |
| lesshaste | can you explain the problem in a little more detail? | 13:25 |
| fijal | yes | 13:26 |
| lahwran | fijal: does the jit cause initialization to be slower than it would be without the jit? | 13:28 |
| lesshaste | fijal: thanks | 13:28 |
| lahwran | I thought it was the same speed as without during startup, then speeds up afterwards | 13:28 |
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| fijal | lahwran: no, it slows down at the beginning | 13:29 |
| lahwran | well drat | 13:29 |
| fijal | how can JIT be same speed at the beginning and then speed up? | 13:29 |
| fijal | you need to do *extra work* at some point | 13:29 |
| fijal | lesshaste: trying to grab my thoughts, 3min :) | 13:29 |
| lesshaste | :) | 13:29 |
| lahwran | ah. I thought the basic idea of a jit is to take what you'd do without a jit and cache it | 13:29 |
| fijal | lahwran: even if, storing stuff in cache would take time no? | 13:30 |
| lahwran | suppose so | 13:30 |
| fijal | well, you have to compile some assembler at some point as well | 13:31 |
| fijal | so it takes time | 13:31 |
| fijal | anyway | 13:31 |
| fijal | lahwran: I'll look at it, but I'm moving today, so not *right now* | 13:31 |
| fijal | I have your mail marked and whatnot :) | 13:31 |
| fijal | lesshaste: so, we're comparing against C right? | 13:31 |
| lesshaste | fijal: yes | 13:31 |
| lesshaste | fijal: why not :) | 13:31 |
| fijal | ok, so python calls have quite some overhead compared to C | 13:31 |
| fijal | they create frames, populate it with data, etc. | 13:32 |
| fijal | right? | 13:32 |
| lesshaste | fijal: yes.. although I had blindly hoped that pypy did some clever type inference to avoid much of the overhead where it could | 13:32 |
| fijal | pypy's jit does not do type inference | 13:32 |
| lesshaste | ah ok | 13:32 |
| fijal | well | 13:32 |
| lesshaste | that's a key fact :) | 13:32 |
| fijal | not explicitely so | 13:32 |
| fijal | it does implicit type inference though | 13:33 |
| lesshaste | I would like to learn much more about pypy.. but I should apologise about how little I know right now | 13:33 |
| fijal | no problem | 13:33 |
| fijal | it's not like it's documented and it's not like it'll be the same tomorrow | 13:33 |
| lesshaste | :) | 13:33 |
| fijal | so right now what happens is you compile the inner loop | 13:33 |
| fijal | because it overflows the counter faster right? | 13:34 |
| lesshaste | which counter? | 13:34 |
| lesshaste | oh.. some counter that keeps track of what is hot? | 13:34 |
| fijal | it compiles a loop based on number of times it run | 13:34 |
| lesshaste | ok | 13:34 |
| fijal | yes | 13:34 |
| fijal | so this loop is compiled as a loop and that means there is a frame somewhere | 13:34 |
| fijal | that we reuse | 13:34 |
| lesshaste | ok | 13:35 |
| fijal | now as you call such a function, you inline the part before loop and then boom, you discover a loop | 13:35 |
| fijal | but it was already compiled, so you call it instead of inlining | 13:35 |
| fijal | and that requires creation of frame | 13:35 |
| fijal | this is a bit obscure and we should probably fix it one day (soon) | 13:35 |
| fijal | but this is how it works right now | 13:35 |
| lesshaste | ah ok | 13:35 |
| fijal | so if the function contains no loop, it gets nicely inlined and all overheads are removed | 13:35 |
| fijal | however a looped function is not inlined | 13:36 |
| fijal | only the beginning | 13:36 |
| fijal | this is usually not a problem because you iterate enough times anyway | 13:36 |
| fijal | but it is a problem in case you iterate relatively few | 13:36 |
| fijal | I would suspect that if you by hand unroll like 4 iterations, it would go faster | 13:36 |
| fijal | but DONT DO IT | 13:36 |
| fijal | it's an ugly hack that might break any day | 13:36 |
| lesshaste | ok.. so this leads me to the next question | 13:36 |
| lesshaste | could pypy not unroll 4 times? | 13:37 |
| fijal | if you do it, just for measurments please :) | 13:37 |
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| lesshaste | I mean.. why not use loop unrolling it as a workaround in pypy? | 13:37 |
| lahwran | does pypy have a mode like the jvm's server vm, which does /all/ the jiting at startup? | 13:37 |
| fijal | it runs into a lot of issues | 13:37 |
| fijal | like suddenly all your traces are much longer | 13:37 |
| fijal | etc. | 13:37 |
| fijal | lesshaste: this is to be evaluated, but hasn't been done yet | 13:38 |
| lesshaste | ok.. next question.. where the number of iterations of a loop is knowable | 13:38 |
| lesshaste | i.e. it's a constant | 13:38 |
| lesshaste | could pypy use that info? | 13:38 |
| lesshaste | for i in xrange(100) | 13:38 |
| lesshaste | for example | 13:38 |
| fijal | 100 would be a lot to unroll | 13:39 |
| fijal | but maybe | 13:39 |
| fijal | this is all to-be-inspected | 13:39 |
| lesshaste | ok | 13:39 |
| lesshaste | thanks | 13:39 |
| lesshaste | can I ask an unrelated question? | 13:39 |
| fijal | but seriously if you ask "can X be done?" I'll answer "yes, but it has not been done so far" | 13:39 |
| lesshaste | also about pypy though :) | 13:39 |
| fijal | feel free to experiment with this stuff though :) | 13:39 |
| fijal | sure, I have 5 more minutes before I need to carry heavy shit around ;-) | 13:39 |
| lesshaste | :) | 13:40 |
| lesshaste | I am interested in R + pypy | 13:40 |
| lahwran | I like to say the answer to "can it be done" is always "yes"; the real question you want is "can it be done usefully" | 13:40 |
| lesshaste | as I think I once mentioned | 13:40 |
| lesshaste | I vaguely remember someone was going to write a guide to make it easier to pypy new languages | 13:40 |
| fijal | lahwran: sometimes we say "it's hard" | 13:40 |
| fijal | and this means a lot ;-) | 13:40 |
| lesshaste | fijal: is this in any way plausible or just a vast amount of work? R+pypy I mean | 13:40 |
| Action: fijal points at lahwran | 13:40 | |
| Action: lahwran is pointed at | 13:40 | |
| lahwran | <fijal> lahwran: I'll look at it, but I'm moving today, so not *right now* <fijal> I have your mail marked and whatnot :) | 13:41 |
| fijal | ltratt also did some work | 13:41 |
| lahwran | to what email do you refer? | 13:41 |
| fijal | am I confusing people? | 13:41 |
| lahwran | yep | 13:41 |
| fijal | I think I am | 13:41 |
| fijal | ltratt is the guy who implemented converge VM | 13:41 |
| lahwran | perhaps I should let you finish your conversation before attempting to join in | 13:41 |
| fijal | lahwran: so sorry | 13:41 |
| lesshaste | lahwran: :) | 13:41 |
| fijal | R+pypy - workable | 13:42 |
| fijal | is R dynamic? | 13:42 |
| lesshaste | fijal: yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_%28programming_language%29 | 13:42 |
| lesshaste | fijal: if you by that you mean a dynamic typing system | 13:42 |
| lesshaste | fijal: I can get some students to work on it.. BUT they are not that great and they only spend 2 months or so of actual work :) | 13:43 |
| lesshaste | fijal: so I am trying to get a measure for the plausibility | 13:43 |
| lesshaste | fijal: and it would be really great if there were a "how to get started with pypy and a new language" guide | 13:44 |
| fijal | lesshaste: you should mail ltratt | 13:44 |
| lesshaste | fijal: on the other hand, it would be great :) | 13:44 |
| lesshaste | fijal: how do I contact him/her? | 13:44 |
| fijal | anyway | 13:44 |
| lesshaste | ltratt@pypy.pypy :) | 13:44 |
| fijal | laurence tratt, look at the recent pypy-dev mail | 13:45 |
| lesshaste | ? | 13:45 |
| lesshaste | thanks | 13:45 |
| fijal | on pypy-dev | 13:45 |
| fijal | sorry, my 5 minutes is up :) | 13:45 |
| lesshaste | thanks :) | 13:45 |
| lesshaste | http://tratt.net/laurie/ I think I know him! | 13:46 |
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| Rhyolite | Hi, Maciej. Happy New Year! | 16:08 |
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| fijal | hi | 16:16 |
| fijal | Rhyolite: happy new year | 16:16 |
| fijal | uf, done with moving | 16:16 |
| fijal | lesshaste: ok, have more time now | 16:16 |
| Rhyolite | fijal: great. enjoy the new place! | 16:16 |
| fijal | it's pretty cool | 16:16 |
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| mattip | fijal: happy new year/dwelling | 17:25 |
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| lesshaste | hi fijal | 19:11 |
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| christophler | somebody rebooted my webserver... anything exciting happen over new years? | 20:27 |
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| fijal | hi | 21:26 |
| mikefc | morning | 21:26 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: I now have a prototype of the trace page done, needs lots more work though | 21:34 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: cool | 21:34 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: I have a prototype for ADSL connection needs lots more work :/ | 21:35 |
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| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: do you want to show something btw? | 21:46 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: yes, I'm getting it online, one mmoment | 21:46 |
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| christophler | Alex_Gaynor: Hello, you made some reference to the idea of True/False not being singletones but something about Id s. What is that about, and how do I find out more. Sounds fascinating | 22:07 |
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| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-macosx-x86-32/builds/763 | 22:30 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/1000 | 22:30 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/191 | 22:30 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64-2/builds/19 | 22:30 |
| ivan | if Paul McMillan is here I thank him for doing a real fix for the hash collisions (Python-dev) | 22:36 |
| Alex_Gaynor | ivan: he's in #django-dev PaulM | 22:37 |
| lesshaste | hi Alex_Gaynor | 22:41 |
| lesshaste | is there a list somewhere (in someone's head?) of all the non python languages that have been implemented in pypy/rpython? | 22:41 |
| lesshaste | I only know of prolog in that context | 22:41 |
| timotimo | http://pypy.org/features.html � look at the very end of this site | 22:54 |
| timotimo | this is not an exhaustive list, though. for example i've implemented a befunge vm in pypy, but never advertised it publicly, because it isn't really very fast and doesn't use the jit very well | 22:57 |
| timotimo | i'm sure other people have done some in-private rpython hacking/toying around | 22:59 |
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| Action: mikefc puts his PGM image format interpreter up for consideration. | 23:33 | |
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| mikefc | Why was micronumpy implemented as a mixed module? What is it that was needed at the interpreter level? Was it so it would lazy evaluation? Is it so a numpy array was a 'first class' object? Was it for speed reasons i.e. is the interp level faster than the app level? | 23:39 |
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| timotimo | mikefc: the point was, i believe, so that the jit could be controlled directly | 23:50 |
| timotimo | the lazy evaluation could have been made in regular applevel python, too | 23:50 |
| timotimo | the interface would not have been as pretty, though, i would suppose? | 23:50 |
| --- Mon Jan 2 2012 | 00:00 | |
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