#pypy IRC log for Sunday, 2012-01-01

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lahwranhttps://gist.github.com/c6cafb907345d79a69b803:49
lahwranthose are the modules pypy_interact imports, directly or indirectly03:49
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lahwranwhat is the purpose of pypy/tool/killsubprocess.py? what about it is better than simply Popen.kill()?04:07
mikefclahwran: Python 2.6 (final) was released on October 1st, 200804:33
mikefclahwran: Popen.kill() New in version 2.6.04:33
mikefclahwran: hg log pypy/tool/killsubprocess.py =>  date:        Fri Sep 07 09:53:45 2007 +000004:33
lahwranis that really it?04:34
mikefcmaybe. it looks like Armin wrote it way back when so that he could reliably kill things.  04:34
lahwran<KirkMcDonald> lahwran: That one polls the pid first.04:34
lahwran<KirkMcDonald> lahwran: So it will silently return if the process has already ended.04:34
lahwranfrom #python04:34
mikefcworth asking on the mailing list. 04:34
lahwranahhhh, I don't like the mailing list, so slow 04:34
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CIA-5303arigo 07roundup * 10#967/itertools.imap significantly (order of magnitude) slower than map or gencomps: 07:45
CIA-53Indeed, there is a special case for list(generator). It's a bit annoying that07:45
CIA-53the more general list(iterator) is not sped up by the JIT at all. ... * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue96707:45
kenaan12arigo default 11d0d0b1bbbee8 15/LICENSE: Update the year here (fix tool/test/test_license.py)07:52
lahwranbots, bots everywhere08:02
mikefci guess people are either drinking or sleeping ...08:18
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mattipmikefc: hi10:16
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mikefchey mattip10:20
mattipYou asked about get_concrete10:22
mikefcyeah. i tried adding it to Scalar, but got ztranslate test errors.10:22
mattipIt allows lazy evaluation10:22
mattiplike (a+a)*(a+a) will evaluate (a+a) only once10:23
mattipNo point in doing it for scalars, doesn't save much.10:23
mikefcmattip: i was getting a "not implemented" exception when i did   "repr(numpy.array(0.2))"10:24
mikefcbecause get_concrete doesn't exist on Scalar10:24
mikefci've posted a patch to bugs.pypy that tried to fix a few things with  agaynor's problems with numpypy.zeros([])10:25
mattipSo the problem is that something broke repr(Scalar)10:25
mikefci don't know if repr(Scalar) ever worked. there are no tests for it :)10:25
mattipand whoever wrote repr (me) didn't test for it :(10:25
mikefcheh10:25
mattipI wanted to rework to_str anyway, I wrote it when both multidim numpypy and me were new to the game.10:26
mattipSo now I have some motivation.10:26
mattipGive me a week or so10:27
mikefcI'm just fiddling around the edges at the moment trying to unravel the code.10:27
mattipYes, it's a bit daunting.10:28
mikefctrying to add a cross() at the moment. but wondering why repr(numpy.array([1,2,3])) is different between us and regular numpy10:28
mattipwhat's the diff?10:28
mikefcnumpy: 'array([1, 2, 3])'10:29
mikefcnumpypy: 'array([1, 2, 3], dtype=int64)'10:29
mikefci thought there was an if/then that suppressed it in the code if it was int6410:30
mattipOK, that's another bug. The test for that only really works on 32bit.10:30
-mrmist (~mrmist@freenode/staff/pdpc.active.mrmist) to $$*- [Global Notice] - With this hour we welcome the New Year for American Samoa- Pago Pago, Niue (Alofi), Midway Islands, Jarvis Isl., Kingman Reef and Palmyra Atoll and that brings most of the populated world into 2012. I hope everyone enjoys a Happy New Year and thank you all for flying freenode!10:31
mikefcwant me to put it on bugs.pypy?10:31
mattipI am not in a place where I can really see code now, but it has to do with dtypes10:31
mikefcthere's a line in descr_repr which says: "if not int64dtype, append 'dtype=dtype.name'"10:32
mattipIf I haven't fixed it in a week, post a bug. It's not something I think anyone else but you and me care enough about to fix.10:32
mikefcis anyone looking at numpypy besides you?10:33
mattipDo you know the story about the blind men and the elephant? numpypy is a big elephant.10:34
mattipI am trying to push in features. Others are working on performance.10:34
mattipMainly what is missing to move things forward is a commercial interest.10:35
mikefcand I'm trying to figure out how to read the code!10:35
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mattipOr more plainly: cash.10:35
mikefcgot time to answer a quick question on numarray ?10:37
mattipI have time to listen :)10:37
mikefcto implement the cross product, i pass two arrays, a & b.  But how do i do something like  a[0] * b[1] in interp_numarray?10:38
mikefcthere's a whole lot of indirection to ufuncs that most other functions are relying on.10:39
mikefci can't find a nice out-of-order func to use as a template.10:39
mikefchmm. is it just .getitem(index)?10:40
mattipYou probably want to use an iterator.10:41
mikefcperhaps, but crossproduct doesn't really do things "in order"10:42
mikefc(and i'm really not sure I'm up to working out iterators at this stage)10:44
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mattipSo maybe do it in app_numarray.py for the mean time, in pure python, without having to worry about all the rpython stuff.10:47
mattipIn the "final version" it would want to use lazy evaluation and all fijal's wonderful signature array/iterator stuff.10:48
mikefcooooooooh. is *that* what app_numpy is!10:50
mikefcit's a maze trying to figure out what goes where, what gets defined where.10:52
mikefcso appleveldefs are pure python?  do they get jitted at all?10:52
verte-wlesliepure python gets jitted10:53
verte-wlesliethat's what the jit operates on10:53
mikefcverte-wleslie: thanks. 10:54
mattipmikefc: goota go. Any more quick questions?10:54
mattipgotta*10:55
mikefcnope. thanks. I'm rereading the micronumpy dir in a new light now :)10:55
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lahwranis numpy even necessary on pypy?10:55
lahwranin terms of speed, not compatibility10:55
mattipWell, I would like to see pypy support scipy without too much rewrite.10:57
mikefcthere's that whole numpy C api argument that I don't understand yet...10:58
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Action: mikefc reads the coding guide for a third time. some of it makes sense this time!11:30
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kenaan12arigo concurrent-marksweep 11ca9580042f31 15/pypy/rpython/memory/gc/concurrentgen.txt: Add a section to the documentation.  Not implemented yet.11:45
kenaan12arigo concurrent-marksweep 1101950ba0f81a 15/: hg merge default11:45
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fijalhi13:16
lesshastehi13:16
fijallesshaste: hi13:17
lesshastehappy new year :)13:20
fijalheh, you too13:23
lesshasteI was thinking about the loop problem.. and decided I didn't really understand it :)13:25
lesshastecan you explain the problem in a little more detail?13:25
fijalyes13:26
lahwranfijal: does the jit cause initialization to be slower than it would be without the jit?13:28
lesshastefijal: thanks13:28
lahwranI thought it was the same speed as without during startup, then speeds up afterwards13:28
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fijallahwran: no, it slows down at the beginning13:29
lahwranwell drat13:29
fijalhow can JIT be same speed at the beginning and then speed up?13:29
fijalyou need to do *extra work* at some point13:29
fijallesshaste: trying to grab my thoughts, 3min :)13:29
lesshaste:)13:29
lahwranah. I thought the basic idea of a jit is to take what you'd do without a jit and cache it13:29
fijallahwran: even if, storing stuff in cache would take time no?13:30
lahwransuppose so13:30
fijalwell, you have to compile some assembler at some point as well13:31
fijalso it takes time13:31
fijalanyway13:31
fijallahwran: I'll look at it, but I'm moving today, so not *right now*13:31
fijalI have your mail marked and whatnot :)13:31
fijallesshaste: so, we're comparing against C right?13:31
lesshastefijal: yes13:31
lesshastefijal: why not :)13:31
fijalok, so python calls have quite some overhead compared to C13:31
fijalthey create frames, populate it with data, etc.13:32
fijalright?13:32
lesshastefijal: yes.. although I had blindly hoped that pypy did some clever type inference to avoid much of the overhead where it could13:32
fijalpypy's jit does not do type inference13:32
lesshasteah ok13:32
fijalwell13:32
lesshastethat's a key fact :)13:32
fijalnot explicitely so13:32
fijalit does implicit type inference though13:33
lesshasteI would like to learn much more about pypy.. but I should apologise about how little I know right now13:33
fijalno problem13:33
fijalit's not like it's documented and it's not like it'll be the same tomorrow13:33
lesshaste:)13:33
fijalso right now what happens is you compile the inner loop13:33
fijalbecause it overflows the counter faster right?13:34
lesshastewhich counter?13:34
lesshasteoh.. some counter that keeps track of what is hot?13:34
fijalit compiles a loop based on number of times it run13:34
lesshasteok13:34
fijalyes13:34
fijalso this loop is compiled as a loop and that means there is a frame somewhere13:34
fijalthat we reuse13:34
lesshasteok13:35
fijalnow as you call such a function, you inline the part before loop and then boom, you discover a loop13:35
fijalbut it was already compiled, so you call it instead of inlining13:35
fijaland that requires creation of frame13:35
fijalthis is a bit obscure and we should probably fix it one day (soon)13:35
fijalbut this is how it works right now13:35
lesshasteah ok13:35
fijalso if the function contains no loop, it gets nicely inlined and all overheads are removed13:35
fijalhowever a looped function is not inlined13:36
fijalonly the beginning13:36
fijalthis is usually not a problem because you iterate enough times anyway13:36
fijalbut it is a problem in case you iterate relatively few13:36
fijalI would suspect that if you by hand unroll like 4 iterations, it would go faster13:36
fijalbut DONT DO IT13:36
fijalit's an ugly hack that might break any day13:36
lesshasteok.. so this leads me to the next question13:36
lesshastecould pypy not unroll 4 times?13:37
fijalif you do it, just for measurments please :)13:37
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lesshasteI mean.. why not use loop unrolling it as a workaround in pypy?13:37
lahwrandoes pypy have a mode like the jvm's server vm, which does /all/ the jiting at startup?13:37
fijalit runs into a lot of issues13:37
fijallike suddenly all your traces are much longer13:37
fijaletc.13:37
fijallesshaste: this is to be evaluated, but hasn't been done yet13:38
lesshasteok.. next question.. where the number of iterations of a loop is knowable13:38
lesshastei.e. it's a constant 13:38
lesshastecould pypy use that info?13:38
lesshastefor i in xrange(100)13:38
lesshastefor example13:38
fijal100 would be a lot to unroll13:39
fijalbut maybe13:39
fijalthis is all to-be-inspected13:39
lesshasteok13:39
lesshastethanks13:39
lesshastecan I ask an unrelated question?13:39
fijalbut seriously if you ask "can X be done?" I'll answer "yes, but it has not been done so far"13:39
lesshastealso about pypy though :)13:39
fijalfeel free to experiment with this stuff though :)13:39
fijalsure, I have 5 more minutes before I need to carry heavy shit around ;-)13:39
lesshaste:)13:40
lesshasteI am interested in R + pypy13:40
lahwranI like to say the answer to "can it be done" is always "yes"; the real question you want is "can it be done usefully"13:40
lesshasteas I think I once mentioned13:40
lesshasteI vaguely remember someone was going to write a guide to make it easier to pypy new languages13:40
fijallahwran: sometimes we say "it's hard"13:40
fijaland this means a lot ;-)13:40
lesshastefijal: is this in any way plausible or just a vast amount of work? R+pypy I mean13:40
Action: fijal points at lahwran13:40
Action: lahwran is pointed at13:40
lahwran<fijal> lahwran: I'll look at it, but I'm moving today, so not *right now* <fijal> I have your mail marked and whatnot :)13:41
fijalltratt also did some work13:41
lahwranto what email do you refer?13:41
fijalam I confusing people?13:41
lahwranyep13:41
fijalI think I am13:41
fijalltratt is the guy who implemented converge VM13:41
lahwranperhaps I should let you finish your conversation before attempting to join in13:41
fijallahwran: so sorry13:41
lesshastelahwran: :)13:41
fijalR+pypy - workable13:42
fijalis R dynamic?13:42
lesshastefijal: yes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_%28programming_language%2913:42
lesshastefijal: if you by that you mean a dynamic typing system13:42
lesshastefijal: I can get some students to work on it.. BUT they are not that great and they only spend 2 months or so of actual work :)13:43
lesshastefijal: so I am trying to get a measure for the plausibility13:43
lesshastefijal: and it would be really great if there were a "how to get started with pypy and  a new language" guide13:44
fijallesshaste: you should mail ltratt13:44
lesshastefijal: on the other hand, it would be great :)13:44
lesshastefijal: how do I contact him/her?13:44
fijalanyway13:44
lesshasteltratt@pypy.pypy :)13:44
fijallaurence tratt, look at the recent pypy-dev mail13:45
lesshaste?13:45
lesshastethanks13:45
fijalon pypy-dev13:45
fijalsorry, my 5 minutes is up :)13:45
lesshastethanks :)13:45
lesshastehttp://tratt.net/laurie/  I think I know him!13:46
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RhyoliteHi, Maciej.  Happy New Year!16:08
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fijalhi16:16
fijalRhyolite: happy new year16:16
fijaluf, done with moving16:16
fijallesshaste: ok, have more time now16:16
Rhyolitefijal: great.  enjoy the new place!16:16
fijalit's pretty cool16:16
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mattipfijal: happy new year/dwelling17:25
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lesshastehi fijal 19:11
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christophlersomebody rebooted my webserver... anything exciting happen over new years?20:27
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fijalhi21:26
mikefcmorning21:26
Alex_Gaynorfijal: I now have a prototype of the trace page done, needs lots more work though21:34
fijalAlex_Gaynor: cool21:34
fijalAlex_Gaynor: I have a prototype for ADSL connection needs lots more work :/21:35
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fijalAlex_Gaynor: do you want to show something btw?21:46
Alex_Gaynorfijal: yes, I'm getting it online, one mmoment21:46
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christophlerAlex_Gaynor: Hello, you made some reference to the idea of True/False not being singletones but something about Id s. What is that about, and how do I find out more. Sounds fascinating22:07
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bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-macosx-x86-32/builds/76322:30
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/100022:30
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/19122:30
bbot2Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64-2/builds/1922:30
ivanif Paul McMillan is here I thank him for doing a real fix for the hash collisions (Python-dev)22:36
Alex_Gaynorivan: he's in #django-dev PaulM22:37
lesshastehi Alex_Gaynor 22:41
lesshasteis there a list somewhere (in someone's head?) of all the non python languages that have been implemented in pypy/rpython?22:41
lesshasteI only know of prolog in that context22:41
timotimohttp://pypy.org/features.html � look at the very end of this site22:54
timotimothis is not an exhaustive list, though. for example i've implemented a befunge vm in pypy, but never advertised it publicly, because it isn't really very fast and doesn't use the jit very well22:57
timotimoi'm sure other people have done some in-private rpython hacking/toying around22:59
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Action: mikefc puts his PGM image format interpreter up for consideration.23:33
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mikefcWhy was micronumpy implemented as a mixed module?  What is it that was needed at the interpreter level?  Was it so it would lazy evaluation?  Is it so a numpy array was a 'first class' object?  Was it for speed reasons i.e. is the interp level faster than the app level?23:39
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timotimomikefc: the point was, i believe, so that the jit could be controlled directly23:50
timotimothe lazy evaluation could have been made in regular applevel python, too23:50
timotimothe interface would not have been as pretty, though, i would suppose?23:50
--- Mon Jan 2 201200:00

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