| exarkun | mcdonc_: twisted.web | 00:09 |
|---|---|---|
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| mcdonc_ | python 3 | 00:15 |
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| exarkun | you might as well say "java" | 00:27 |
| mcdonc_ | guess pypy better stop accepting donations for it then | 00:27 |
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| lahwran | how's pypy doing on speed tests vs java? | 00:29 |
| lahwran | last I heard, java was wicked fast, enough to make python seem like a child's toy in speed comparisons | 00:29 |
| lahwran | but I haven't done any benchmarking of pypy vs java | 00:29 |
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| timotimo | lahwran: the JVM has a huge head start on pypy with regards to JIT and garbage collectors | 00:53 |
| lahwran | so yes, java would still ace any speed test, then | 00:54 |
| timotimo | maybe not any - and i can't really tell how jvm and pypy-python compare WRT data structure sizes | 00:55 |
| timotimo | i'm guessing any time java can make use of concurrency (dunno if a parallel GC is the default for the jvm), it can potentially kick pypys ass | 00:56 |
| Rhyolite | timotimo: avg java object is 6-8 words | 00:56 |
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| timotimo | Rhyolite: do you have an idea what that number would be for pypy with either of the standard GCs? | 01:00 |
| Rhyolite | timotimo: sorry, I don't have equivalent for pypy | 01:01 |
| Rhyolite | but GCs for Java are all over the place | 01:01 |
| Rhyolite | meaning there are ones that run concurrently | 01:01 |
| Rhyolite | ones that one incrementally | 01:01 |
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| timotimo | hm, the concurrent pypy gc branch has been abandoned, has it not? | 01:02 |
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| rguillebert | timotimo, it's one of the potential sprint subjects so I guess not | 04:29 |
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| timotimo | ah, neat | 04:33 |
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| fijal | hi | 07:53 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: ping | 08:02 |
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| fijal | lahwran: I know examples where java is slow | 08:36 |
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| kenaan | 12bivab extradoc 11abf475e17259 15/sprintinfo/leysin-winter-2012/people.txt: Add myself | 09:02 |
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| mikefc | i also posted a monstrously simple .ndim attribute patch on https://bugs.pypy.org/issue977 if anyone wants to commit it. | 09:17 |
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| fijal | mikefc: hey | 09:47 |
| CIA-53 | 03fijal 07roundup * 10#977/numpypy ndim attribute (patch attached): [resolved] Applied in ac51513392d3, thanks! * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue977 | 09:49 |
| Nick change: espes -> bgespes | 09:50 | |
| kenaan | 12fijal default 11dfdc41ac371c 15/pypy/: minor simplifications and fixes that were laying around in my wc | 09:50 |
| kenaan | 12fijal default 11ac51513392d3 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: (mikefc) add an ndim attribute | 09:50 |
| fijal | applied | 09:50 |
| fijal | thanks for the patch! | 09:50 |
| mikefc | np | 09:51 |
| Nick change: bgespes -> espes | 09:51 | |
| mikefc | I also put a patch for numpypy.cross() on bugs.pypy. But it's at applevel. And only currently works on 1D. But it was in response to someone who needed it for something, so I thought "better something than nothing" | 09:51 |
| fijal | I'll look into having a more generic reduce functions on axes-based things | 09:52 |
| fijal | 1D is the equivalent of sum, isn't it? | 09:52 |
| mikefc | cross() is a cross-product and doesn't really iterate. | 09:53 |
| fijal | I'll look just after I'm done with whatever I promised to alex :) | 09:53 |
| fijal | uh | 09:53 |
| fijal | sorry | 09:53 |
| fijal | I read cumsum | 09:53 |
| mikefc | cumsum is just the cumulative sum. which should possibly be one interp level line. | 09:54 |
| mikefc | maybe a few more if we actually respect the 'axis' argument. | 09:54 |
| fijal | we have 16 open branches for numpy, will take some time to cleanup :/ | 09:54 |
| fijal | yes | 09:54 |
| Action: mikefc goes branch browsing | 09:58 | |
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| fijal | mattip: hi | 09:59 |
| mattip | fhi | 09:59 |
| fijal | mattip: did you implement numpy.cross on *some* branch? | 09:59 |
| fijal | no, that was numpy.dot right? | 09:59 |
| mattip | no, it's a patch mike sent to the list I think | 09:59 |
| fijal | mikefc: cross should be implemented on interp-level since otherwise the performance sucks | 09:59 |
| fijal | you are iterating over vectors right? | 09:59 |
| mikefc | fijal: cross really doesn't iterate :) | 10:00 |
| fijal | well, how it doesn't? | 10:00 |
| fijal | it reads all the values right? | 10:00 |
| mikefc | but i guess interp level would be better, but I don't know how yet. | 10:00 |
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| fijal | look how say dot is implemented | 10:01 |
| lesshaste | hi fijal | 10:01 |
| mikefc | dot just calls sum. | 10:01 |
| fijal | lesshaste: hi | 10:01 |
| lesshaste | I got hold of laurie | 10:01 |
| lesshaste | turns out we knew each other quite well :) | 10:01 |
| fijal | right :) | 10:01 |
| fijal | mikefc: so no, not dot | 10:02 |
| fijal | _any or _all are good examples | 10:02 |
| fijal | mikefc: try first without a jit driver | 10:02 |
| fijal | and I'll explain how to add one later | 10:02 |
| lesshaste | fijal: so... if I understand correctly... the steps to implement a new language are a) write a brilliant interpreter for it in rpython b) run that through pypy c) work out how to make it faster using the pypy jit | 10:03 |
| mikefc | ok. thanks. looking now... | 10:03 |
| fijal | I'll also try to write some documentation maybe | 10:03 |
| lesshaste | is that a reasonable summary? :) | 10:03 |
| fijal | lesshaste: "brilliant" as in? | 10:03 |
| lesshaste | fijal: really good :) | 10:03 |
| lesshaste | fijal: perfectly designed and wonderfully efficient | 10:03 |
| fijal | eh | 10:03 |
| fijal | this is not how our python interpreter is written | 10:03 |
| lesshaste | ah :) | 10:04 |
| fijal | it sacrificies performance for ease of implementation in a lot of places | 10:04 |
| fijal | we hope to invent some magic later on :) | 10:04 |
| lesshaste | did you write anything about the design of your python interpreter? | 10:04 |
| fijal | yes | 10:04 |
| fijal | there are old EU reports | 10:04 |
| lesshaste | I should read those | 10:04 |
| fijal | and docs about multimethods and objspaces | 10:04 |
| fijal | although I would recommend against using multimethods in hindsight :) | 10:04 |
| fijal | anyway, it's not optimized | 10:04 |
| lesshaste | I am at a really basic level. Do you have a special bytecode you invented for example? | 10:04 |
| fijal | and in fact, fast interpreter with clever tricks might not be a good jit target | 10:05 |
| fijal | no, we just reused the python one | 10:05 |
| fijal | it's not very relevant for the JIT | 10:05 |
| lesshaste | ok that's interesting | 10:05 |
| fijal | so you invent bytecode whatever pleases you | 10:05 |
| fijal | and then write as-simple-as-possible interpreter | 10:06 |
| fijal | clever optimizations can be done later | 10:06 |
| fijal | anyway | 10:06 |
| Action: fijal off for surf | 10:06 | |
| fijal | I'll be back in 2-3h | 10:06 |
| lesshaste | I was reading http://norvig.com/lispy.html for inspiration | 10:06 |
| lesshaste | ok bye | 10:06 |
| lesshaste | fijal: reused the python bytecode? | 10:07 |
| fijal | yes, the cpython one | 10:08 |
| lesshaste | ah | 10:09 |
| mattip | fijal: I'l try to catch you for code review in ~6 hours, if you're around and interested. | 10:09 |
| mattip | numpy-axisops | 10:10 |
| mattip | numpypy-repr-fix | 10:11 |
| fijal | mattip: yop | 10:11 |
| fijal | numpypy-repr-fix looks good | 10:11 |
| mattip | OK, I will merge numpypy-repr-fix to default later, unless someone does it first. mikefc should get most of the credit | 10:13 |
| forrestv | what disadvantage is there to writing a pure-python version of numpy? what optimizations can compiling it do that the jit can't? | 10:19 |
| mikefc | mattip: your patch looks nothing like what i suggested :) | 10:20 |
| mikefc | forrestv: that is probably a question for fijal | 10:20 |
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| mattip | mikefc: my kids don't look like me either, but I always get the blame when they screw up. | 10:21 |
| mikefc | forrestv: fwiw, i think doing lots of it in purepython would get most things up and running pretty quickly. Some of it can't be done in pure python because of the way the fast array class is written (i.e. at the level of the interpreter). | 10:23 |
| mikefc | forrestv: I would be a fan of "mostly done pure python numpypy with rewrites for speed as needed" | 10:24 |
| mikefc | because I think more people need to see it as being complete-ish | 10:24 |
| mikefc | when we don't have a cross() function or an ndim attribute, i think people would worry that numpypy is mostly incomplete. | 10:25 |
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| mikefc | whereas mattip/fijal/etc are spending their time on getting the (very important!) guts working correct. | 10:26 |
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| fijal | forrestv: hey | 11:08 |
| fijal | forrestv: first of all, python does not have all the necessary types | 11:08 |
| fijal | there is no int8 or int32 at python level | 11:08 |
| fijal | second, there is no way to express "a dense array of int32" at app level | 11:08 |
| fijal | third, numpy gets a special JIT which compiles stuff down to assembler | 11:09 |
| fijal | so all numpy expressions are unrolled and compiled | 11:09 |
| mikefc | fijal: you should put all that in a FAQ | 11:10 |
| forrestv | ah, okay, i wasn't thinking about of all of numpy's types | 11:10 |
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| fijal | mikefc: yes, this is 17th on the list of things to do today | 11:11 |
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| forrestv | i guess you could emulate them... (a+b)%2**32 ...and theoretically the jit could detect that :P | 11:11 |
| fijal | you can't for the storage | 11:13 |
| fijal | and C libraries require storage to be precise | 11:13 |
| fijal | etc. | 11:13 |
| forrestv | mm, thanks | 11:13 |
| fijal | anyway, numpy is close enough to bare metal that it makes sense | 11:14 |
| fijal | for example implementing efficient numpy using SSE (somehow) does not sound like a good thing to do in python | 11:14 |
| fijal | numpy is one of the very few libraries that allow that | 11:14 |
| fijal | er | 11:15 |
| fijal | that need that | 11:15 |
| kenaan | 12hakanardo jit-usable_retrace_2 1196d5bc2c492d 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/: Generalize a bit harder by killing intbounds and constants at end of bridges forcing retracing. | 11:16 |
| kenaan | 12hakanardo jit-usable_retrace_2 118fc4e9a20794 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/test/test_send.py: fix test | 11:16 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/662 [12hakanardo, jit-usable_retrace_2] | 11:17 |
| kenaan | 12fijal default 119a896c04e85a 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: (mattip) merge numpy-repr-fix | 11:18 |
| kenaan | 12fijal numpypy-repr-fix 11cef73b42fc52 15/: close merged branch | 11:18 |
| mikefc | "generalize harder" | 11:19 |
| mikefc | i like that :) | 11:19 |
| hakanardo | mikefc: our optimizer typically specializes as much as as it can just about everywhere | 11:22 |
| hakanardo | here I made it generalize again to make retracing more likely to succeed | 11:23 |
| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 112044da143a09 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/ppc_assembler.py: fix broken offset in PPC64 direct bootstrap code | 11:25 |
| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 114da195ede6a6 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/opassembler.py: fix wrong guard condition in CALL_ASSEMBLER | 11:25 |
| mikefc | hakanardo: "generalize harder" has a cool ring to it. sounds like a 'Die Hard' movie :) | 11:31 |
| hakanardo | :) | 11:34 |
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| fijal | meh, writing hooks for the jit is hard :/ | 11:53 |
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| kenaan | 12fijal better-jit-hooks 11ec5dfe7d9d1a 15/: merge default | 12:04 |
| kenaan | 12fijal better-jit-hooks 117f549487e540 15/pypy/rlib/jit.py: remove unnecessary imports | 12:04 |
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| fijal | jit.py contains 775 LOC :/ | 12:07 |
| k_bx | fijal: ping | 12:10 |
| fijal | k_bx: pong | 12:11 |
| k_bx | fijal: hi, I wanted to ask you about your unit-test tweet (about comment "also fix XXX" when writing integrational test). | 12:11 |
| fijal | yes? | 12:11 |
| k_bx | fijal: well, could you "tell little more" on that? From what I understood, you mean that when you do functional/integrational test and it fails, non-integrational tests (test of those units) should fail too. Or when you fix functional/integrational test, your unit-tests will fail just because semantic change or something. So why writing # XXX: also fix bla-bla-bla | 12:13 |
| k_bx | fijal: also I didn't understand what precicely you will write at "also fix bla-bla-bla" (what's instead of bla-bla-bla) | 12:13 |
| fijal | yes, sec | 12:17 |
| k_bx | fijal: offtopic: I wanted to open and read that tweet (to remember) and opened https://twitter.com/#!/fijal What can I say, you've changed your haircut? :) | 12:18 |
| bbot2 | 3Success: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/662 [12hakanardo, jit-usable_retrace_2] | 12:19 |
| fijal | heh :) | 12:19 |
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| fijal | k_bx: ok, I can explain now | 12:34 |
| fijal | k_bx: the particular problem was that unit tests didn't get updated | 12:34 |
| fijal | so the piece of software was valid | 12:34 |
| fijal | but the input was no longer the same | 12:34 |
| fijal | so it did not do the job | 12:34 |
| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 11997593f72e51 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/opassembler.py: fix another bug in CALL_ASSEMBLER | 12:36 |
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| kenaan | 12fijal better-jit-hooks 11a8dc9a3fd739 15/pypy/rlib/jit.py: work out the API | 12:43 |
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| cfbolz | hello | 13:02 |
| fijal | cfbolz: hi! | 13:02 |
| fijal | how's the conference? | 13:02 |
| cfbolz | so far mostly peaceful | 13:03 |
| cfbolz | fijal: do you know where the pypy video processing demos are living? | 13:03 |
| fijal | is it a good or a bad thing? | 13:03 |
| cfbolz | fijal: a good thing | 13:03 |
| kenaan | 12fijal better-jit-hooks 11f7c24c0067c5 15/pypy/jit/: progress - have some more information on on_abort hook, kill some unnecessary clutter | 13:03 |
| kenaan | 12fijal better-jit-hooks 11fb9acc31d2e9 15/pypy/module/pypyjit/: adjust pypyjit module to use the new API | 13:03 |
| fijal | yes, iwtc11 | 13:03 |
| fijal | or iwtc2011 in extradoc/talk/ | 13:03 |
| fijal | and then demos/image or something | 13:03 |
| fijal | extradoc/talk/iwtc11/benchmarks/image | 13:04 |
| fijal | to be precise | 13:04 |
| fijal | cfbolz: I'm having fun with the JIT hooks | 13:04 |
| fijal | cfbolz: how cool would it be to be able to write an optimization at applevel? | 13:04 |
| cfbolz | fijal: sobel seems broken for me | 13:04 |
| fijal | what does it do? | 13:05 |
| cfbolz | the output is black | 13:05 |
| fijal | works for me | 13:05 |
| cfbolz | hmpf | 13:05 |
| fijal | plays a simple demo | 13:05 |
| fijal | are you doing sobel.py tv:// | 13:06 |
| hakanardo | the mplayer hack used to display video does not work with to recent mplayers | 13:06 |
| fijal | or just sobel.py? | 13:06 |
| cfbolz | hakanardo: any way to fix that? | 13:06 |
| hakanardo | I have a diffrent hack somewhere... | 13:06 |
| hakanardo | or grab an older mplayer... | 13:06 |
| cfbolz | hakanardo: sounds like too much work | 13:07 |
| hakanardo | I should fix the demos I suppose... | 13:07 |
| cfbolz | hakanardo: would be cool, it's still the best demo for pypy we have | 13:09 |
| cfbolz | fijal: I think optimizations at applevel would be cool for prototyping | 13:10 |
| fijal | cfbolz: or demos :) | 13:10 |
| fijal | it would end up slightly more rigid than it is now | 13:10 |
| antocuni | fijal: +1 for writing optimizations at applevel :-) | 13:11 |
| fijal | but more importantly you would be able to check if optimization X is worth it | 13:11 |
| fijal | if you're careful about measurments at least | 13:11 |
| fijal | you can even have a GUI where you move boxes "what happens if..." | 13:13 |
| fijal | anyway, I'm trying to do that | 13:13 |
| Nick change: nedbat_ -> nedbat | 13:26 | |
| kenaan | 12hakanardo extradoc 118bce6bae2607 15/talk/iwtc11/benchmarks/image/io.py: adjust mplayer hack to also work with more modern mplayer | 13:28 |
| hakanardo | cfbolz: it should work with newer mplayer now... | 13:29 |
| cfbolz | hakanardo: thnk you very much | 13:29 |
| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 11be5c3642001f 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/ppc_assembler.py: (bivab, hager): make test_memoryerror pass, factor out return code | 13:29 |
| kenaan | 12cfbolz extradoc 11806e6da58235 15/planning/jit.txt: this was done by the list-strategies branch | 13:30 |
| kenaan | 12cfbolz extradoc 11f5f38f08d90d 15/talk/icooolps2011/talk/talk.tex: typo in talk slides | 13:30 |
| kenaan | 12cfbolz extradoc 11a88377852aa3 15/: merge | 13:30 |
| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 110529ccad7c00 15/: merge | 13:41 |
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| k_bx | fijal: yes, so what you've ment is that unit-tests without functional/integration tests don't mean that anything work, it's truth. but I am interested in that comment about "XXX: fix ... when broken". Never saw something like that before :) | 13:45 |
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| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 11d3d90edc432a 15/pypy/jit/backend/: changes due to merge | 14:03 |
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| Rhy0lite | hi | 15:30 |
| Rhy0lite | bivab: hi | 15:35 |
| bivab | Rhy0lite: hi | 15:35 |
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| Rhy0lite | I see some more progress on PPC64 backend | 15:35 |
| Rhy0lite | is Sven around? | 15:35 |
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| bivab | ah, there he is | 15:37 |
| sven_hager | hello | 15:37 |
| Rhy0lite | hi, sven | 15:37 |
| Rhy0lite | I hope that both of you had a nice holiday | 15:38 |
| Rhy0lite | I see you made some more progress on the ppc64 backend for memoryerror | 15:38 |
| sven_hager | yep, thank you | 15:38 |
| sven_hager | yes, this morning all tests were passing | 15:38 |
| sven_hager | thank you for your help | 15:39 |
| Rhy0lite | ppc32 or ppc64? | 15:39 |
| sven_hager | both | 15:39 |
| sven_hager | currently, we are merging to the default branch | 15:39 |
| Rhy0lite | you fixed test_assembler_call as well? | 15:40 |
| sven_hager | yes, there was a bug in the direct bootstrap code | 15:40 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: pong | 15:40 |
| sven_hager | but it runs now | 15:40 |
| sven_hager | unfortunately, currently nothing passes | 15:40 |
| sven_hager | because of the merge | 15:40 |
| Rhy0lite | yeah | 15:40 |
| Rhy0lite | I just discovered that | 15:41 |
| sven_hager | but we are working on it | 15:41 |
| Rhy0lite | okay | 15:41 |
| Rhy0lite | let me know if you need help | 15:41 |
| sven_hager | ok, thank you =) | 15:41 |
| Rhy0lite | great work! | 15:41 |
| sven_hager | after the merge, we wanted to start with the implementation of floats | 15:41 |
| Rhy0lite | okay | 15:41 |
| sven_hager | and in between, we will try do translate the RPython | 15:42 |
| Rhy0lite | Maciej mentioned that we should try running random | 15:42 |
| Rhy0lite | exactly, we can try a translation of a simple interpreter | 15:42 |
| sven_hager | yes, I agree | 15:42 |
| Rhy0lite | I improved the PPC64 call sequence slightly | 15:43 |
| Rhy0lite | to make it more efficient and match the intended style | 15:43 |
| sven_hager | ah ok | 15:43 |
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| Rhy0lite | but there is some additional knowledge we can bring | 15:44 |
| Rhy0lite | because all of the calls are heavy-weight | 15:44 |
| sven_hager | I saw that you refactored many parts in the code which only worked on PPC32 | 15:44 |
| sven_hager | especially calls | 15:45 |
| sven_hager | what do you mean by heavy-weight ? | 15:45 |
| Rhy0lite | The PPC64 call is fairly expensive because it assumes that it will can call a function in another module | 15:45 |
| Rhy0lite | with a different base for addressibility | 15:45 |
| Rhy0lite | we can improve the ppc64 backend code by knowing which "calls" only will call other pypy code | 15:46 |
| sven_hager | ah ok | 15:46 |
| Rhy0lite | versus calls that will jump to external code | 15:46 |
| sven_hager | can you give an example ? | 15:46 |
| Rhy0lite | let's go to the pypy-ppc channel | 15:47 |
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| furrykef | Ugh. Anybody want to help me make a 'pypy2exe'? I just made some changes to my assembler and now it runs slower with Psyco than without (too many closures, I guess), but it's still fast with PyPy... | 15:50 |
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| jacob22 | You should probably put your call for help on the mailing list. Some of the people who can help you are not paying attention to the IRC channel right now. | 15:59 |
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| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 1159f9ad63fcbc 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/test/test_stackframe.py: (edelsohn, hager): corrected diagram of stackframes | 16:06 |
| lahwran | furrykef: dunno if you're on the pypy mailing list, but it's quite active | 16:15 |
| lahwran | you're quite likely to get a response if you drop the list a line | 16:16 |
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| kenaan | 12hager ppc-jit-backend 11c0bb80a287e9 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/test/test_stackframe.py: fixed typo in diagram | 16:28 |
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| kenaan | 12alex_gaynor default 111946d8c1d887 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: small beautification | 16:36 |
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| andrewfr | i have some questions about stm and setting up pypy with virtualenv | 16:38 |
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| mattip | fijal: feel like looking at numpypy-axisops? | 16:44 |
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| lahwran | http://speed.pypy.org/changes/ | 18:14 |
| lahwran | wait, what | 18:14 |
| lahwran | a fixed test and updated copyright years caused changes in performance? ._. | 18:14 |
| Alex_Gaynor | noise | 18:14 |
| lahwran | ..right | 18:14 |
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| furrykef | Most of those involve times so small I imagine it's difficult to measure them reliably. | 18:22 |
| lahwran | right | 18:22 |
| yati | Hi! can I find a high level architecture of PyPy? I'd like to know more about the internals. Where do I start?(I know the sources are the best bet, but a gentler, more abstract intro could help:)) | 18:26 |
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| antocuni | yati: http://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/index.html | 18:28 |
| antocuni | in particular, the "Project documentation" section down in the page | 18:28 |
| yati | oooh lala! exactly what I wanted! thanks a ton antocuni !! | 18:29 |
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| lesshaste | here is a dumb question but.. when implementing a new language what is the disadvantage of writing the interpreter in python (and using pypy to run it) rather than rpython? | 19:03 |
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| exarkun | it's easier | 19:04 |
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| lesshaste | isn't it easier to write an interpreter in python than rpython? | 19:04 |
| rguillebert | lesshaste, you can't get a JIT and it's slower | 19:04 |
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| lesshaste | rguillebert: sounds like a good answer :) | 19:05 |
| lesshaste | rguillebert: so pypy would be the jit for python... but I take your point that it would be slower | 19:05 |
| lesshaste | I am just trying to understand the route for implementing a non-python language using pypy | 19:06 |
| rguillebert | you can run PyPy on top of PyPy (or CPython) and you will see the advantage of translating :) | 19:06 |
| lesshaste | rguillebert: ok.. so next question.. could one compile python to rpython ? | 19:07 |
| rguillebert | no | 19:08 |
| lesshaste | I am trying to avoid writing an interpreter in rpython :) | 19:08 |
| lesshaste | rguillebert: how come? | 19:08 |
| rguillebert | rpython is a subset of python | 19:08 |
| lesshaste | rguillebert: sure..you can compile C to assembly :) | 19:08 |
| lesshaste | but I was hoping it might be easier to compile python to rpython than that | 19:08 |
| Rhy0lite | rguillebert: I think he means translate | 19:08 |
| lesshaste | I do | 19:08 |
| Rhy0lite | and emulate the features that rpython does not directly support | 19:09 |
| Rhy0lite | although I'm not sure of the advantage he hopes to achieve | 19:09 |
| lesshaste | Rhy0lite: I want to make it easier to implement new languages | 19:09 |
| lesshaste | writing an interpreter in python is quite easy | 19:09 |
| lesshaste | it's not clear to me how easy it is in rpython | 19:09 |
| rguillebert | lesshaste, can you compile Python code to C with the speed of C ? | 19:09 |
| Rhy0lite | we haven't found RPyhon to be overly constraining | 19:10 |
| rguillebert | (the answer is no) | 19:10 |
| lesshaste | rguillebert: of course not :) I was hoping rpython might be an easier fit | 19:10 |
| lesshaste | Rhy0lite: ok.. in case it's interesting. I would like to have a go at R | 19:10 |
| lesshaste | and putting that into the pypy framework | 19:10 |
| rguillebert | rpython is python code minus stuff that can't be statically compiled efficiently | 19:10 |
| Rhy0lite | lesshaste: and remember that you can write Python -- sort of | 19:11 |
| Rhy0lite | in the sense that you can write Python that generates RPython that is translated | 19:11 |
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| Rhy0lite | you can meta-program | 19:11 |
| Rhy0lite | for some features | 19:11 |
| lesshaste | sure | 19:11 |
| lesshaste | ok .. another question | 19:11 |
| lesshaste | R has about 700 "primitive functions" | 19:11 |
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| lesshaste | there will be written in C and perfectly fast | 19:11 |
| lesshaste | might it be possible to use the existing C rather than reimplement them in rpython? | 19:12 |
| lesshaste | s/there/these | 19:12 |
| exarkun | PyPy can't JIT through code in C | 19:12 |
| lesshaste | I think I saw something along these lines to do with scipy | 19:12 |
| lesshaste | on the blog | 19:12 |
| exarkun | Sure, there's severalw ays. | 19:12 |
| exarkun | You might as well write in Python and use ctypes, though. | 19:13 |
| lesshaste | this would be great and would even make the project plausible to do | 19:13 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: well I would like to avoid implementing all 700 functions | 19:13 |
| lesshaste | maybe I didn't understand " write in Python and use ctypes" | 19:14 |
| rguillebert | you can use rffi to call C code in rpython but you don't get the JIT | 19:14 |
| rguillebert | (you can implement some of them in rpython) | 19:14 |
| exarkun | lesshaste: you know what "write in Python" means right? and you know what ctypes is? | 19:15 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: yes :) | 19:15 |
| exarkun | then I think you understand. | 19:15 |
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| lesshaste | when you say you don't get the JIT | 19:20 |
| lesshaste | do you mean that the JIT doesn't work for any of the code or it just doesn't speed up the part written in C? | 19:20 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: what I didn't understand was that the aim is to have a faster R implementation | 19:21 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: how could you write in Python and use ctypes to acheive that? | 19:22 |
| lesshaste | achieve | 19:22 |
| lesshaste | sorry I am new to this.. as you can see | 19:22 |
| exarkun | lesshaste: You can't. That's the point. That's what "you might as well" means - it'll be just as slow whether you use Python/ctypes or crazy scipy embedded C hacks. | 19:23 |
| exarkun | rffi is somewhat faster than ctypes, but you still lose the JIT if you go through external arbitrary C APIs, so it's still not going to be as fast as you want. | 19:24 |
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| timotimo | what keeps pypy from tracing the machine code of the functions that are externally called and optimise out branching and other things? :) | 19:25 |
| timotimo | after all, x86 is just another kind of bytecode, although a seriously fucked up kind of bytecode | 19:25 |
| exarkun | timotimo: The lack of a virtual x86 implementation, I guess. | 19:26 |
| timotimo | OK, that's a seriously huge hurdle. x86 is big and ugly :\ | 19:26 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: I don't understand why you lose the JIT completely | 19:27 |
| exarkun | lesshaste: You don't lose it completely. | 19:27 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: to be more precise.. I don't understand why you *have to* lose the JIT completely | 19:27 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: oh... | 19:27 |
| exarkun | The JIT will still work for any code that doesn't use _any_ of the external functions you're talking about. | 19:27 |
| exarkun | It didn't sound like you cared about such code though. | 19:27 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: ok let me try to understand.. say I have a simple piece code with a loop that uses nothign external and a loop that does | 19:28 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: why can't the first loop be jitted? | 19:28 |
| Alex_Gaynor | both loops are jit'd | 19:28 |
| Alex_Gaynor | however you can't trace through an external call | 19:28 |
| Alex_Gaynor | so it can't be optimized with the rest of the code | 19:28 |
| lesshaste | Alex_Gaynor: ok so the rest of the code will be optimised? Just not the external call part? And if so, what is a part? | 19:29 |
| lesshaste | Alex_Gaynor: also, could an external call just be regarded as an atomic operation like any other that rpython has? | 19:29 |
| lesshaste | Alex_Gaynor: err.. I see the problem with that suggestion.. :( | 19:30 |
| lesshaste | but do you see what I mean? I was hoping an external call would just be a black box that the jit can't understand and just ignores for the purposes of optimsation | 19:31 |
| lesshaste | thereby still optimising everything that isn't an external call in the same piece of code | 19:31 |
| Alex_Gaynor | it is a black box | 19:31 |
| Alex_Gaynor | but it's not ignored | 19:31 |
| Alex_Gaynor | it's basically assumed to be able to mutate any non-GC memory | 19:31 |
| exarkun | it's a black box filled with poison | 19:31 |
| Alex_Gaynor | basically :) | 19:31 |
| lesshaste | my point being that you don't want to optimise the external call most likely as they are already fast | 19:32 |
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| lesshaste | oh... re: poison | 19:32 |
| lesshaste | I am naively thinking of external calls that are functions with no side effects | 19:33 |
| lesshaste | which is the only case I care about here | 19:33 |
| exarkun | lesshaste: What makes you think calling one of these functions doesn't change the values stored in some registers? | 19:33 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: ok so I get that.. so a wrapper that restores the state would be needed? | 19:34 |
| lesshaste | exarkun: I mean saves it before the call and restores it after | 19:34 |
| exarkun | lesshaste: There is such a wrapper already, in rffi. | 19:35 |
| lesshaste | ok.. then why doesn't the rest of the code get optimised :) | 19:35 |
| lesshaste | ? | 19:35 |
| Alex_Gaynor | the rest of the code is optimized, as I've said. | 19:35 |
| exarkun | saving and restoring registers isn't free | 19:35 |
| lesshaste | oh! | 19:35 |
| exarkun | the wrapper has a cost | 19:35 |
| lesshaste | ok | 19:35 |
| exarkun | a cost you'd probably avoid if you were calling an equivalent rpython function | 19:36 |
| exarkun | not to mention the savings of inlining | 19:36 |
| exarkun | and whatever other cool stuff the jit does that I have no idea about | 19:36 |
| lesshaste | ok thanks | 19:36 |
| lesshaste | so I think I get it now.. basically rffi implements a simple method to allow the jit to do it's work but has some cost | 19:37 |
| lesshaste | s/it's/its | 19:37 |
| lesshaste | so this is a possible first step for implementing R | 19:37 |
| Alex_Gaynor | well, it depends entirely on what R's APIs look like | 19:37 |
| lesshaste | then you have to weigh up the theoretical speedup from moving entirely to rpython against the possibility of some amazingly optimised C code one can't compete with | 19:37 |
| lesshaste | http://code.google.com/p/renjin/wiki/TOC is my resource for this | 19:38 |
| exarkun | lesshaste: the real, _known_ cost of an external call vs the hypothetical, _unknown_ cost of not using the super-genius C implementation of the R APIs | 19:39 |
| lesshaste | right | 19:39 |
| exarkun | in my experience, most super-genius C isn't all that fast | 19:39 |
| lesshaste | or correct :) | 19:40 |
| exarkun | I don't know anything about R specifically though. | 19:40 |
| lesshaste | it's not so much that I believe their C code will be so fast really | 19:40 |
| lesshaste | it's more trying to make a project that can deliver something | 19:41 |
| lesshaste | and then be improvable | 19:41 |
| lesshaste | with limited manpower | 19:41 |
| lesshaste | and it would be nice to support all existing R code quickly | 19:42 |
| lesshaste | and then speed things up piecemeal | 19:42 |
| mattip | fijal: ping | 19:43 |
| lesshaste | a virtual x86 implementation in rpython? | 19:43 |
| lesshaste | was that suggested? :) | 19:43 |
| ronny | lesshaste: i dont think that would be sensible and sane in any way | 19:44 |
| lesshaste | no.. mostly because you then have to simulate hardware too I assume | 19:45 |
| ronny | lesshaste: orderes of magnitudes of speed degraions are to be expected | 19:45 |
| ronny | +d | 19:45 |
| lesshaste | right | 19:45 |
| lesshaste | I was looking at http://bellard.org/jslinux/tech.html | 19:46 |
| lesshaste | thanks everyone for your help | 19:50 |
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| lesshaste | I suppose you don't strictly need to save the state | 20:03 |
| lesshaste | you can just write something known but that probably is terrible for optimisation | 20:03 |
| lesshaste | maybe :) | 20:03 |
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| fijal | mattip: pongish | 20:19 |
| lahwran | <lvh> lahwran: try this expression: (lambda: None).func_globals["__builtins__"].__import__("new").function((lambda: None).func_globals["__builtins__"].__import__("new").code(0, 5, 8, 0, "KABOOM", (), (),(), "", "", 0, ""), {})() | 20:20 |
| lahwran | <lvh> lahwran: That throws an exception in the untranslated interpreter | 20:21 |
| lahwran | that have anything to do with the JIT? | 20:21 |
| fijal | untranslated interpreter has no JIT | 20:21 |
| lahwran | I mean the expression. supposedly causes a segfault on translated pypy | 20:21 |
| fijal | it's entirely possible | 20:21 |
| fijal | it segfaults CPython as well | 20:22 |
| lahwran | he was giving it to me as a reason not to trust the sandbox | 20:22 |
| fijal | it won't segfault the sandbox | 20:22 |
| lahwran | however, it crashes the sandbox with a rpython exception, not a segfault | 20:22 |
| fijal | sandbox have extra things compiled in | 20:23 |
| fijal | this is very likely say null-reference | 20:23 |
| fijal | which is not really exploitable | 20:23 |
| fijal | lahwran: tell lvh we thought harder about sandbox | 20:23 |
| fijal | which channel btw? | 20:24 |
| lahwran | #python | 20:24 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: you ping'd earlier? | 20:25 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: yeah | 20:25 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: I'm playing with jit hooks | 20:25 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: cool, I'm modeling stuff for the database | 20:25 |
| mattip | fijal: numpypy-axisops ? | 20:33 |
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| fijal | mattip: yes | 20:57 |
| mattip | so I created a Reduce class along the lines of Call1 in interp_numarray | 20:59 |
| mattip | and promoted AxisIterator to a fully functional iterator | 20:59 |
| mattip | and added default arguments for axis to reduce calls (sum, prod, max, min) | 21:00 |
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| mattip | Along the way, I sorted out some problems with the way sum() promotes /doesn't promote to float | 21:01 |
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| christophler | [5~ | 21:02 |
| mattip | I tried to write tests for it all. That pretty much sums up the intention. | 21:02 |
| fijal | mattip: did you check the coverage by chance? | 21:02 |
| mattip | uhh, some kind of --coverage to pytest.py? | 21:03 |
| mattip | No. | 21:03 |
| fijal | yeah | 21:04 |
| fijal | --cov-report=html --cov=. | 21:04 |
| fijal | or so | 21:04 |
| Action: mattip trying it | 21:05 | |
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| mikefc | Alex_Gaynor: "small beatification": + # numpy actually raises an AttributeError, but numpypy raises an | 21:17 |
| mikefc | + # AttributeError | 21:17 |
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| Alex_Gaynor | 80 char lines | 21:18 |
| mikefc | numpypy actually raises a typeerror (as seen in the raise() | 21:18 |
| Alex_Gaynor | eh, I didn't mean to change that | 21:18 |
| mikefc | you didn't | 21:18 |
| mikefc | i must've written a shit comment | 21:18 |
| mikefc | originally | 21:18 |
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| fijal | mattip: if you want to help, can you merge default and resolve conflicts? | 21:19 |
| lahwran | can pypy be compiled for ARM? | 21:19 |
| fijal | they're trivial | 21:19 |
| kenaan | 12alex_gaynor default 11ece227c225ab 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/test/test_numarray.py: fix comment | 21:19 |
| fijal | lahwran: almost | 21:19 |
| fijal | lahwran: the JIT | 21:19 |
| lahwran | just curious about running it on android | 21:19 |
| lahwran | most android phones run on ARM :P | 21:20 |
| mattip | OK, I'll merge, check coverage, and get back tomorrow or so. Bed time. | 21:21 |
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| fijal | mattip: ok | 21:22 |
| CIA-53 | 03ltratt 07roundup * 10#978/metainterp bug: | 21:25 |
| CIA-53 | [new] With the latest Converge RPython VM, it's possible to trigger this assertion in | 21:25 |
| CIA-53 | the JIT: | 21:25 |
| CIA-53 | RPython traceback: | 21:25 |
| CIA-53 | File "jit_metainterp_ ... * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue978 | 21:25 |
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| lesshaste | lahwran: is there even a fully working python for android yet? | 21:36 |
| lahwran | yes | 21:36 |
| lesshaste | lahwran: I thought it was something non-compatibale | 21:36 |
| lahwran | has been for more than a year | 21:36 |
| lesshaste | I must be wrong :) | 21:36 |
| lahwran | sl4a | 21:36 |
| lahwran | been dead for ages | 21:36 |
| lesshaste | ok.. does the new stuff support numpy etc? | 21:36 |
| lahwran | but it did produce a functional python | 21:36 |
| lahwran | on android? doubtful | 21:37 |
| lahwran | numpy would have to be compiled for it | 21:37 |
| lesshaste | oh.. so what is there? | 21:37 |
| lahwran | the standard cpython library | 21:37 |
| lesshaste | do you mean http://code.google.com/p/python-for-android/ ? | 21:37 |
| lahwran | uh, no, actually | 21:38 |
| lesshaste | do you have link for what you have in mind? | 21:38 |
| lahwran | http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ | 21:38 |
| lesshaste | the link I gave works with s4la :) | 21:39 |
| lesshaste | sl4a | 21:39 |
| lesshaste | so what has been " dead for ages" ? | 21:40 |
| lesshaste | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3346970/starting-with-android-java-or-python-sl4a is pretty negative about it | 21:42 |
| Action: lesshaste is OT.. sorry | 21:42 | |
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| fijal | lesshaste: it's fine, nothing else happens here right now | 21:44 |
| lesshaste | :) | 21:44 |
| fijal | lahwran: pypy's story on mobile devices is not great | 21:44 |
| fijal | I would not put any effort into that *right now* | 21:44 |
| lesshaste | in that case.. perhaps I can ask an interpreter question | 21:44 |
| fijal | there are ideas, but personally I'm trying to focus on one thing | 21:44 |
| fijal | lesshaste: yes? | 21:44 |
| lesshaste | I will eventually be writing an interpreter for R | 21:44 |
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| lesshaste | is there some reason to invent a bytecode? | 21:44 |
| lesshaste | what advantage does that give? | 21:45 |
| CIA-53 | 03mattip 07roundup * 10#964/numpypy.zeros([]) returns wrong result: [resolved] changeset merged to default. * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue964 | 21:45 |
| lesshaste | this is for pypy of course :) | 21:45 |
| fijal | over say directly interpreting AST? | 21:45 |
| lesshaste | right | 21:45 |
| gutworth | bytecode is usually faster | 21:46 |
| fijal | gutworth: is it? | 21:46 |
| fijal | [citation needed] | 21:46 |
| gutworth | [mri] | 21:46 |
| lesshaste | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreter_%28computing%29#cite_note-4 | 21:46 |
| lesshaste | :) | 21:46 |
| fijal | lesshaste: sometimes it makes sense, because you work on a different level | 21:47 |
| fijal | but it should be mostly irrelevant in the case of JIT | 21:47 |
| lesshaste | ok thanks | 21:47 |
| lahwran | fijal: I figured as much | 21:48 |
| Alex_Gaynor | "For example, for the block { x++; }, the interpreter would first visit the block node {&}, which did nothing" | 21:48 |
| Alex_Gaynor | grumble | 21:48 |
| fijal | lesshaste: yeah, don't worry about that | 21:49 |
| fijal | lesshaste: from my experience changing JS interpreter from AST to bytecode did nothing special | 21:49 |
| fijal | except you sometimes can map stuff better because you have an extra layer | 21:50 |
| fijal | but that's about it | 21:50 |
| fijal | it certainly did not improve performance (those were pre-jit days) | 21:50 |
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| mikefc | given i have w_a, w_b and w_c (which are ndarrays) how do I write: c[0] = a[1]*b[2] - a[2]*b[1] | 21:53 |
| Action: mikefc hasn't been able to find anything to cheat off in interp_numarray | 21:54 | |
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| fijal | mikefc: oh, does it work only on 2-element 1-d arrays? | 21:56 |
| Nick change: ivan -> Vladimir_K | 21:56 | |
| fijal | oh sorry | 21:57 |
| fijal | mikefc: it can be clearly implemented at applevel :/ | 21:57 |
| mikefc | 2 or 3 element 1d arrays. as well as N*3 and N*2 arrays. | 21:57 |
| mikefc | oh | 21:57 |
| Alex_Gaynor | FYI numpy.cross is pure python | 21:57 |
| fijal | what does N*3 and N*2 arrays do? | 21:57 |
| Alex_Gaynor | (if that's what you're working on) | 21:58 |
| fijal | if so then we should just copy | 21:58 |
| fijal | and not reimplement such stuff | 21:58 |
| mikefc | Alex_Gaynor: i know. I stole it from numpy | 21:58 |
| Alex_Gaynor | so we don't need to reimplement it, just reuse it | 21:58 |
| mikefc | and commented out the higher dimensions stuff that needs .swapaxes() | 21:58 |
| fijal | can we just introduce lib_pypy/numpy and pull whatever is there? | 21:59 |
| mikefc | fijal: if it's a (say) 4x3 array, it will just calculate 4 1d cross products. | 21:59 |
| fijal | rename micronumpy to _numpypy | 21:59 |
| mikefc | it would be great if we could just 'steal' all that applevel stuff | 21:59 |
| fijal | yes | 21:59 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: feel like doing something with gzip-benchmark pull request? | 22:00 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: uh, it's fine, except no one ever resolved the issue of "if /tmp isn't memory mapped it's file system dependent" | 22:01 |
| fijal | uh ok | 22:01 |
| fijal | so well, close it if noone is willing to? | 22:01 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: well, I'd rather merge it and have it be a bit noisy than close it | 22:02 |
| Alex_Gaynor | I don't even know if the tarfile module supports memory files | 22:02 |
| fijal | ok | 22:02 |
| fijal | do it the n:) | 22:02 |
| kenaan | 12jonashaag benchmarks 11783f9a3c79e7 15/own/bm_gzip.py: Added GZip benchmark | 22:03 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: ok, you'll have to do whatever setup on teh server | 22:03 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: pff, any objection to unrolling ll_mul (on rlist) if isconstant(len(l)) and isconstant(factor)? | 22:04 |
| kenaan | 12mattip numpypy-axisops 1120bacb9bb86a 15/: merge with default | 22:04 |
| mattip | fijal: How do I show you my pretty html pages of coverage? | 22:05 |
| Alex_Gaynor | mattip: no need to show it to us, just review it to make sure there aren't missing tests | 22:05 |
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| fijal | no | 22:11 |
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| lesshaste | If only I knew how they got bbc basic to be so damned fast :) | 22:17 |
| lesshaste | which was interpreted if I recall correctly | 22:17 |
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| rekamso | is pypy completely lacking SSL support? | 22:22 |
| Nick change: Vladimir_K -> ivan | 22:22 | |
| Alex_Gaynor | import ssl works | 22:23 |
| Alex_Gaynor | so I'd say no | 22:23 |
| rekamso | must be specific to twisted | 22:29 |
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| gutworth | yes, twisted needs pyopenssl | 22:31 |
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| fijal | rekamso: pyopenssl should work with a nightly | 22:41 |
| rekamso | I'll try it out :o | 22:41 |
| kenaan | 12mattip numpypy-axisops 116c64bd2290f9 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/test/test_numarray.py: add test to cover no identity value in reduce | 22:45 |
| mattip | fijal: coverge seems OK except for line 23 here http://paste.pocoo.org/show/529555 | 22:48 |
| mattip | which I think predates my changes. | 22:48 |
| Alex_Gaynor | mattip: yes, it does | 22:48 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: promised me he'd add tests for it, but never did ;) | 22:48 |
| fijal | bad fijal no cookie | 22:50 |
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| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/193 | 23:00 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-macosx-x86-32/builds/765 | 23:00 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/1002 | 23:00 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64-2/builds/21 | 23:00 |
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| kenaan | 12fijal pypy.org[extradoc] 110236eec67b94 15/: update individual donations | 23:06 |
| kenaan | 12fijal pypy.org[extradoc] 11ce65b7d4c181 15/: merge | 23:06 |
| mattip | uhh, I think that code can never be reached, at least not with the current logic. | 23:06 |
| fijal | killit | 23:07 |
| mattip | The chunks arg is only used if res_shape is different than self.shape | 23:07 |
| mattip | But then array_sig in BaseArray will return a ViewSignature, not an ArraySignature. | 23:08 |
| mattip | ahh, by killit you mean killit. I need to read while I write :) | 23:09 |
| kenaan | 12mattip numpypy-axisops 11e27a9330285a 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: kill dead code, with an assert and a comment | 23:12 |
| mattip | g'night | 23:12 |
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| --- Wed Jan 4 2012 | 00:00 | |
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