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| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: So I just got back from dabeaz's talk | 04:12 |
| mikefc_ | Alex_Gaynor: was he going to talk about compilers and pypy? | 04:13 |
| Alex_Gaynor | He gave a talk on RPython | 04:13 |
| Alex_Gaynor | (and his struggles to understand it) | 04:14 |
| mikefc_ | ah. interesting. did it point the way to any language changes/codification? | 04:14 |
| Alex_Gaynor | NO | 04:15 |
| Alex_Gaynor | err no * :) | 04:15 |
| mikefc_ | I should go to the local python meeting sometime. probably not as cool as the Chicago one. | 04:17 |
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| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: and? | 10:02 |
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| mikefc | would anyone mind if I closed some old issues: like https://bugs.pypy.org/issue617 which no longer seems to hold true. | 11:00 |
| fijal | mikefc: if you measured and it's no longer true, sure | 11:02 |
| fijal | tracker gardening is always welcomed | 11:02 |
| fijal | re - the way we work | 11:02 |
| fijal | mikefc: create a branch commit there, ask for review | 11:02 |
| Nick change: verte-wleslie -> wleslie | 11:03 | |
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| mikefc | fijal: ok. I'll play around on a toy project first and get the feel for hg/bitbucket. | 11:03 |
| mikefc | on issue617 there's about 1 3% difference between xrange and range. | 11:04 |
| mikefc | "a 3% difference" | 11:04 |
| mikefc | ugh. bad head/hands | 11:04 |
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| kenaan | 12bivab ppc-jit-backend 116a95268fe8c5 15/pypy/jit/backend/ppc/ppcgen/: (edelsohn, bivab): Implement get_ and set_ interiorfileld operations | 11:30 |
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| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 1145b71996531a 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: Write the end. Add XXXes. | 13:02 |
| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 1182661cd4dcd7 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: Finish. | 13:02 |
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| arigato | anyone feel like reading extradoc/blog/draft/tm.rst again? I plan to post it tomorrow | 13:49 |
| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 11f6512e401b4c 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: add | 13:50 |
| antocuni | arigato: I can review it | 13:57 |
| arigato | thanks | 13:57 |
| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 11397ef6a17af3 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: Tweaks | 13:59 |
| arigato | sorry, I'm stopping to fix details myself now | 14:00 |
| antocuni | I'm reviewing 397ef6a17af3, is that ok? | 14:01 |
| antocuni | arigato: I don't understand this sentence | 14:02 |
| antocuni | "Keeping your Python interpreter unchanged while managing to remove the | 14:02 |
| antocuni | infamous GIL" | 14:02 |
| arigato | yes | 14:02 |
| antocuni | why "Python *interpreter*"? | 14:02 |
| antocuni | do you mean Python *program* by chance? | 14:02 |
| arigato | no | 14:03 |
| arigato | that sentence may not be too clear | 14:03 |
| arigato | I mean that in the python-dev world, the ultimate goal so far has been "keep the python interpreter unchanged, but remove the GIL" | 14:03 |
| antocuni | yes, I'm not sure to understand what you mean | 14:03 |
| antocuni | but you need to change the interpreter to remove the GIL | 14:04 |
| antocuni | especially in CPython | 14:04 |
| arigato | yes | 14:04 |
| arigato | sorry | 14:04 |
| arigato | *think think* | 14:04 |
| Action: antocuni tries to rewrite the sentence | 14:05 | |
| arigato | what I mean is basically just "killing the GIL:" | 14:05 |
| arigato | but I want to put a bit of emphasis on "killing the GIL without changing the way the Python programmer has to use threads" | 14:06 |
| arigato | i.e. "without changing the fact that the Python programmer has to use threads" | 14:06 |
| antocuni | yes, I got that now | 14:07 |
| antocuni | I rewrote the sentence | 14:07 |
| antocuni | wait | 14:07 |
| antocuni | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/534231/ | 14:07 |
| arigato | yes, very good | 14:07 |
| antocuni | good :-) | 14:07 |
| arigato | if you check this in, note that it's threadS | 14:08 |
| antocuni | right | 14:08 |
| kenaan | 12antocuni extradoc 1112fcf122a300 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: tweaks to the first section | 14:10 |
| antocuni | arigato: I'm checking in small changes, so you can review those | 14:10 |
| antocuni | while I continue the review | 14:10 |
| arigato | thanks :-) | 14:10 |
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| antocuni | arigato: I'm not sure about the digression about GC for 15-line scripts | 14:13 |
| antocuni | I see the point, but it might distract the reader from the focus | 14:13 |
| arigato | I'll try to simplify it | 14:14 |
| antocuni | ok | 14:14 |
| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 11b2b5484f6be3 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: shorten this | 14:22 |
| arigato | better, or still too much? | 14:22 |
| antocuni | arigato: yes, it's much better now | 14:24 |
| kenaan | 12antocuni extradoc 112dc171daaa33 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: try to clarify the event-vs-thread idea | 14:27 |
| kenaan | 12antocuni extradoc 1156bab9df185f 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: merge heads | 14:27 |
| antocuni | arigato: feel free to revert/modifcy 2dc171daaa33 in case you don't like it | 14:27 |
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| arigato | looks nice | 14:29 |
| antocuni | ok, no more reviews from my side | 14:31 |
| arigato | ok | 14:31 |
| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 112053ec4541aa 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: tweak | 14:31 |
| arigato | ok with this last change? | 14:32 |
| arigato | hum, no | 14:33 |
| arigato | what we mean with *mostly independent* is that the program runs "correctly most of the time", which is a bit different | 14:33 |
| arigato | the lock-free program | 14:33 |
| arigato | it's rather: if we ignore the fact that it would segfault in 1/10 or 1/100 of the events, then the remaining 9/10 or 99/100 of the events would be processed ok | 14:34 |
| arigato | "lock contention is low" | 14:38 |
| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 11874eed76d72e 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: Rewrote this using the official term. | 14:40 |
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| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 112645e022fef1 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: change the title | 14:42 |
| arigato | thanks for the reviews | 14:47 |
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| antocuni | arigato: just saw your last checkins | 14:48 |
| antocuni | you're welcome | 14:48 |
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| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: pong | 16:08 |
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| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 118a88d35f7c69 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: Add a short comment. | 16:23 |
| kenaan | 12arigo concurrent-marksweep 112dce8616fa62 15/pypy/rpython/memory/gc/concurrentgen.py: Fix: these locks from the GC don't have anything to do with the GIL | 16:27 |
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| fijal | mikefc: 3% is below noise, kill it | 16:35 |
| arigato | hi | 16:36 |
| fijal | arigato: I did read half of the post and my point about the introduction missing is still valid :) | 16:36 |
| arigato | I added one, though | 16:37 |
| arigato | maybe not enough? | 16:37 |
| kenaan | 12fijal extradoc 11a0bbad7107d7 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: typo | 16:37 |
| fijal | arigato: I would add two or three sentences why just "lock objects" is not enough | 16:38 |
| arigato | hum | 16:38 |
| arigato | but it is enough, if done correctly | 16:39 |
| arigato | as in Jython (which also doesn't have issues with reference counts) | 16:39 |
| fijal | well ok | 16:39 |
| fijal | so why we don't want to do it :) | 16:39 |
| arigato | ok :-) | 16:39 |
| arigato | well the reasons are now two-fold: it's a mess to do it, *and* it's not enough to get what I describe in this post | 16:40 |
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| fijal | right | 16:41 |
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| fijal | can you please insert it in the post ;) | 16:41 |
| arigato | ok :-) | 16:41 |
| fijal | I roughly know why | 16:41 |
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| kenaan | 12arigo extradoc 116b30ed03026f 15/blog/draft/tm.rst: expand the introduction | 16:52 |
| fijal | thanks :) | 16:53 |
| arigato | :-) | 16:53 |
| Action: fijal dealing with 3 different things | 16:57 | |
| fijal | none of it coding :/ | 16:57 |
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| fijal | arigato: I don't want to tell the guy on the mailing list, but you can achieve compare-and-swap atomicity using a combination of GIL threshold & jit optimizations | 17:38 |
| fijal | or maybe with a bit expanded JIT hooks - mark a function as "don't inline always trace from start, set threshold at 0" | 17:39 |
| fijal | :) | 17:39 |
| fijal | arigato: why was InvalidLoop raised in the jit bug bug report? | 17:39 |
| arigato | yes, but I'm unsure if it always works | 17:39 |
| arigato | e.g. when tracing, or when blackholing | 17:39 |
| arigato | fijal: I don't know yet :-( | 17:40 |
| fijal | ok | 17:40 |
| arigato | ah, found a test in test_ajit that actually reaches the "cancelled, tracing more" point | 17:41 |
| arigato | (no clue why it does, so far) | 17:41 |
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| lesshaste | hi | 19:10 |
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| fijal | lesshaste: hi | 19:55 |
| lesshaste | how are things? | 19:55 |
| fijal | good :) | 19:56 |
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| lahwran | woot, work on the jvm backend | 20:03 |
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| lesshaste | lahwran: jvm?! :) | 20:37 |
| lahwran | I'm still hoping for the day when I can write python which integrates with java code /quickly/ | 20:37 |
| lahwran | jython is far too slow to be useful | 20:37 |
| lesshaste | it's funny how hard these things are.. I remember when inline assembly in a basic program was really easy | 20:38 |
| lesshaste | as the variables were shared automatically | 20:38 |
| lesshaste | now everything is hard.. :( | 20:38 |
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| lesshaste | just plotting a line on the screen is difficult enough :) | 20:40 |
| lahwran | I don't agree with your assertion that things are getting harder | 20:41 |
| lahwran | isn't this why we love python in the first place? because it's designed to make things simpler and easier? | 20:41 |
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| fijal | hm | 21:09 |
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| kenaan | 12fijal numpypy-axisops 11dbcd5ab2e0a2 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: finish numpy-axisops (hopefully) | 21:21 |
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| kenaan | 12fijal numpypy-axisops 112bfdde95bd9f 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: make test_zjit run again. Fails, because produces utter nonsense, next step | 21:29 |
| xux | Hi - I would like to send a user a tarball they can run on pypy without shipping the python source files. What are my options? It seems pypy generated pyc files can't be shipped | 21:30 |
| fijal | pypy generate pyc files are fine as long as you compile pypy with --objspace-lonepycfiles | 21:31 |
| fijal | xux: you're are aware that .pyc files are relatively easy to decompile right? | 21:32 |
| amaury_ | and sometimes this produces better code :-) | 21:32 |
| Dulak | Takes all of 30 seconds to decompile every .pyc file into nicely formatted and easy to read python. | 21:32 |
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| MostAwesomeDude | Dulak: Oh, is there a good tool for modern bytecode formats? | 21:33 |
| Dulak | I have one but it's not free | 21:33 |
| Dulak | Lemme see where I got it from | 21:33 |
| xux | I suspected that might be the case - but I'm tryng to do a "best effort" whereby I don't make it too easy for them. If they go as far as decompiling the pycs then they are welcome to | 21:34 |
| MostAwesomeDude | I did some research and noticed that arigato wrote most of one, but I don't think a complete decompiler's available anywhere nice. | 21:34 |
| MostAwesomeDude | xux: If one spends an afternoon learning the bytecode, one can *read* the output of the dis module. | 21:35 |
| xux | fijal: thanks. Is code generated by --objspace-lonepycfiles any harder to read than normal pycs (out of interest) | 21:35 |
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| Dulak | xux: that's just telling pypy to use bare pyc files and ignore the fact that the py is missing. It's not enabled in pypy by default which is why you have to compile it with that option enabled. Pretty sure it has to effect on the pyc file format at all. | 21:37 |
| Dulak | MostAwesomeDude: it's called uncompyle, apparently there is an uncompyle2 that is free and works with 2.7 | 21:38 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Dulak: Gratis or libre? Last I checked, it was a web service, no source available. | 21:38 |
| kenaan | 12fijal numpypy-axisops 11a6fc54ab906e 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/interp_numarray.py: some immutable fields | 21:38 |
| kenaan | 12fijal numpypy-axisops 11283834dcbfc3 15/: merge default | 21:39 |
| Dulak | MostAwesomeDude: that's decompyle I think | 21:39 |
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| xux | I have to recomple pypy itself to be able to use -objspace-lonepycfiles ? | 21:39 |
| fijal | xux: yes | 21:39 |
| Dulak | xux: whoever would use the bare pyc files would, yes | 21:39 |
| xux | So it is the runtime pypy which needs to be compiled in that fashion. Yes? | 21:40 |
| fijal | yes | 21:41 |
| Dulak | MostAwesomeDude: I bought this util for $40 2 years ago, it works fine for me on 2.6, and gets maybe 90% of the source back from a pyc file | 21:42 |
| Dulak | MostAwesomeDude: it's named uncompyle, I don't remember where we bought it from though. | 21:42 |
| timotimo | xux: you can use py.py with that flag without a translation | 21:42 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Dulak: Well, I want something I can install from PyPI. | 21:42 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Maybe I'll decompile decompyle. :3 | 21:42 |
| fijal | timotimo: you can't use py.py for anything serious except testing | 21:43 |
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| Dulak | MostAwesomeDude: decompyle is an upload service I think, not something you can install | 21:43 |
| kenaan | 12fijal numpypy-axisops 11a8dc471dcb8e 15/pypy/module/micronumpy/: fix the merge | 21:43 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Dulak: Yep, and that's a problem. | 21:44 |
| Dulak | MostAwesomeDude: apparently the new fully working decompyle is an upload service, there is an old OSS version on source forge | 21:44 |
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| exarkun | where "new" means "six years old" :) | 21:47 |
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| Dulak | Well I don't exactly go around decompiling every pyc I find, there was 2 specific instances where we needed it, and the result was close enough to get the job done in time and under budget. | 21:48 |
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| exarkun | Does PyPy have a turing machine backend? | 21:52 |
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| Nisstyre | exarkun: huh? | 21:55 |
| Nisstyre | what would that mean? | 21:55 |
| Nisstyre | isn't PyPy already turing complete? | 21:55 |
| exarkun | Yes. But turing complete means that it can run any program that a turing machine can run. It doesn't mean that it is a turing machine, or even that it runs on a turing machine. | 21:56 |
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| Nisstyre | exarkun: why would it have a turing machine then? What possible use could it have? | 21:57 |
| exarkun | not "have a turing machine" | 21:57 |
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| exarkun | "have a turing machine backend" | 21:57 |
| Nisstyre | okay, what would that mean then? | 21:57 |
| mikefc | like a JVM backend. only for a turing machine. | 21:57 |
| exarkun | right | 21:58 |
| mikefc | exarkun: I'm sure it'd be fun to write one | 21:58 |
| Nisstyre | so it would run in a simulation of a turing machine? | 21:58 |
| amaury_ | a brainfuck backend? | 21:58 |
| exarkun | Nisstyre: no, it would emit a program that would run on a turing machine and be a python interpreter | 21:58 |
| mikefc | i can imagine the simplest code being miles and miles of paper tape :) | 21:58 |
| Nisstyre | oh I see | 21:58 |
| Nisstyre | so you could execute it on a turing machine | 21:58 |
| exarkun | right | 21:58 |
| exarkun | although that's not actually why I | 21:59 |
| exarkun | 'm interested at the moment | 21:59 |
| exarkun | any turing machine can be translated into a set of wang tiles... | 21:59 |
| exarkun | I would like to see the wang tile set for a python interpreter | 22:00 |
| Nisstyre | exarkun: I'd never heard of wang tiles before, but I just looked them up. | 22:00 |
| mikefc | *snigger* he said wang! :) | 22:01 |
| Nisstyre | This looks very interesting. I'm reading GEB now, and it ties in very nicely with that. | 22:01 |
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| xcx | Re: shipping pyc files. Does anyone know what is being alluded to here: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pypy-dev/2011-May/007396.html | 22:15 |
| exarkun | The part about how PyPy has different bytecode than CPython? | 22:20 |
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| xcx | I mean specifically the part "in principle it is possible to modify pypy to directly include the compiled modules inside the executable, making it even (slightly) harder to decompile." | 22:29 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Presumably that, if you are sufficiently determined, you could figure out how to convince PyPy's build system to do that. | 22:29 |
| MostAwesomeDude | I don't suppose it's worth pointing out that if you are sufficiently awesome, your product doesn't need to close its source to be commercially successful. | 22:30 |
| xcx | I'm familiar with that argument, yes. I'm just trying to do something I'd rather not do but someome else has mandated it | 22:32 |
| exarkun | Also, isn't this the channel that was discussing decompilation just a short while ago? | 22:33 |
| exarkun | (summary: python bytecode is nearly equivalent to python source code) | 22:33 |
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| MostAwesomeDude | xcx: Tell them that it is impossible and that the language chosen does not matter. | 22:36 |
| xcx | ok - so lets say I wanted to distribute software written in python in a way that has some difficulty in getting back the source code.. Lets say I understand all the caveats about no mechanism being hackproof | 22:37 |
| xcx | Can anyone suggest options? I don't want to have a discussion about why this is philosophically a bad idea. I'd just like somepractical options that I can research. I realize this is becoming out of scope of a pypy discussion. | 22:39 |
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| MostAwesomeDude | There aren't any practical options. | 22:41 |
| MostAwesomeDude | You can scramble your code to do lots of extra CPU stuff, like Skype. | 22:41 |
| MostAwesomeDude | But that is not a good option for professional software. | 22:41 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Decompiling Python bytecode gives very *very* good Python source. There's a couple idioms that need to be transformed, but for the most part, it's immediately readable. | 22:42 |
| xcx | more so than, say, decompling java class files? | 22:44 |
| MostAwesomeDude | As somebody that can read JVM bytecode? Yes, a bit more readable; there aren't indirections of data in the same way. | 22:46 |
| tumbleweed | in python, you can see all variable names. In java bytecode, local variable names are lost | 22:48 |
| tumbleweed | also, docstrings | 22:49 |
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| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-macosx-x86-32/builds/775 | 23:00 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64/builds/203 | 23:00 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-32/builds/1012 | 23:00 |
| bbot2 | Started: 15http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/jit-benchmark-linux-x86-64-2/builds/31 | 23:00 |
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| htoothrot | xcx, ping | 23:05 |
| htoothrot | i have no timestamps | 23:05 |
| htoothrot | xcx, have you considered something like nuitka or cython | 23:06 |
| xcx | htoothrot: yes I've been playing around with cython just now. It looks like it might be an option. I'm unfamiliar with nuitka. I'll check it out | 23:07 |
| htoothrot | nuitka actually has an unfortunate licensing situation at the moment | 23:07 |
| htoothrot | cython with --embed should work though | 23:07 |
| htoothrot | the author of nuitka claims he will relicense under the psf or similar when he reaches the 1.0 landmark i believe | 23:08 |
| htoothrot | i would like to see that happen and have it replace all the exe builders | 23:08 |
| xcx | I'm going to have to put quite a bit of work in to get cython to be as fast as pypy is, though. From initial playing around | 23:08 |
| htoothrot | ah, i see... | 23:09 |
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| mikefc | wanted: cake. and the eating thereof. | 23:28 |
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| xcx | how witty | 23:35 |
| mikefc | i like to think so. | 23:36 |
| xcx | keep it up then | 23:37 |
| mikefc | roger wilco | 23:37 |
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| mikefc | xcx: other options for you to try: (a) put the importand things in C modules and call them. (b) run it all remotely through a webservice. (c) customise a version of pypy to encrypt the bytecode, then customise a version of pypy-c which decrypts on the fly. | 23:40 |
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| xcx | I'll probably go with (a) for the bits that need to be fast. These are also the bits that, coincidentally, need to be hard to read. It shouldn't be too much work. I don't think cython is going to cut it from my benchmarks vs pypy. Such is life. | 23:43 |
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